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yeah

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what a am i right that's Seth

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Rogen and James Franco from the movie

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the interview no you're not he's not

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being a he's peanut

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butter and jealous he's not Joey he's

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talking about haters at the interview I

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have coming up with Jeffrey Martin is

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quite long extensive talks about a

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million different things if you will but

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one of the points I had pull out cuz it

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just intrigues me is the hater aspect of

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it here's a guy who by all accounts has

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made some major strides in advancing the

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ball in terms of our understanding of

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consciousness and more importantly our

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understanding of how the transcending of

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consciousness in a kind of non-dual way

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relates to well-being so there's some

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social science research combined with

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some practical shut up and meditate

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stuff that is truly stunning but haters

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gonna hate

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it's so unique what you've done we just

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can't stress that enough whether people

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like it or don't like it

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whether you're that grumpy Buddhist

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neuroscience type who's sitting there

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going this isn't it or whether you're a

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spiritual seeker who's so attached to

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your own tradition that you feel like

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this guy is gonna take the secret sauce

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out of what you already know there's all

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sorts of reasons to be a hater on this

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stuff and I'm sure you've encountered

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all of them yeah you know we have a

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scientific framework not a religious

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framework right I'm not a religious

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scholar you know we have had such a

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massive amount of hostility directed at

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us in recent years as we've conducted

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these experiments and as we've been sort

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of more routinely transitioning people

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from these various systems and we've

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done I feel like a lot of outreach we've

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allowed a lot of people from those

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systems to use our programs for free or

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even subsidizing them in other ways or

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even adapting things in other ways and

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allowing them to run them in person

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because they're more comfortable running

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things in person you know I feel like

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we've done

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as much as we can do to really sort of

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reach out and yet there's still just

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such hostility that comes from those

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folks and you know I I mean how happy

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can you really be if you're that hostile

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if you're really experiencing this stuff

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it's hard to be that hostile like I said

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there's a lot to this interview and I'm

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tempted to stack up a bunch of clips so

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you've listened to what I think are all

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the most important parts of this

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interview but I'm not going to do that

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I'm just going to throw it to the wind

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and see what you pull out of it

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stick around my interview with dr.

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Jeffrey Martin is up next on skeptic Oh

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[Music]

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today's guest has a new book titled the

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finders now let me read you a couple of

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blurbs from the back of this book the

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first is from a now neuropsychiatry dr.

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Peter fennec if the Nobel Prize existed

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for psychology the work done by dr.

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Jeffrey Martin and his team would be a

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strong contender again that's from Peter

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fennec next from well-known

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consciousness researcher dr. Alan Combs

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in this book dr. Martin takes his place

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beside William James and Abram as low to

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give us one of the most important and

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groundbreaking works on consciousness in

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human potential heady stuff dr. Jeffrey

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Martin welcome back to skeptic oh so

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great to have you here thanks so much

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it's great to be here it's wonderful to

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see you again likewise and I'm not

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really trying to make light of that at

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all I think that that really puts this

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in context whether you agree with those

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blurbs or not their blurbs unlike my

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clerks I've read Nobel Prize William

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James Maslow what does that feel like

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for you we're gonna talk about this

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finders course we had you on a few years

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ago you were in the middle of it you had

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it up and going and it was running but

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it just keeps gaining a lot of momentum

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what's going on Jeffrey Martin well of

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course most of those people we've had

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relationships with for you know over ten

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years and so they've been trying their

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very best to get us to put out more and

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more and more information from our data

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for a very long time so basically people

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have been super excited and thrilled you

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know when they got a copy of that book

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in their hands because you know they've

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been waiting for it frankly for so long

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and so if you actually if you go to the

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finders book calm I think is the website

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you'll see you can see even more I mean

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it's it's a crazy array of PEEP

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from the head of the transpersonal

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psychology association to Deepak Chopra

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- you know Peter Fenwick like you said -

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just sort of you name it Andy Newberg I

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mean there's like no corner of this

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world that is sort of left out which is

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you know wonderful we're super grateful

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for that but of course these have been

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people that we've you know generally

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worked in some way with for a very very

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long time interfaced with and been

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involved in either their research or

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they're in our research or both

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so these it's you know it's a it's a set

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of long-standing relationships where

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we're absolutely as enthusiastic about

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them and what they do with their

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research and their work as we are with

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ours the one the you know the one

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decision that we made actually was to go

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with testimonials that were primarily

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from people that were involved on the

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science yes let me jump in there though

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because I'm afraid that I may have

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jumped people right into the middle of

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this thing and we need to maybe back up

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who is for those folks who don't

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remember who is dr. Jeffrey Martin and

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what is this finder's thing about that's

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a good question you know it's funny I

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don't feel that relevant in the whole

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thing ironically I feel like I've sort

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of just been taken along on this journey

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that started about 12 years ago really

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it started I would say about 15 years

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ago I was researching things like

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synchronicity and whatnot back then I

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was primarily an entrepreneur not so

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much a researcher and I you know built a

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bunch of companies and done all sorts of

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stuff in the media but for all of that

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success fundamentally I I was not

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unhappy but it just seemed like there

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were a lot of people that were happier

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than I was and given that I was working

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you know all day I felt quite hard and

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that I'd done everything that I'd been

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told it was supposed to be the things

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that made you very happy

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it didn't seem really fair right that

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there were all these other people that

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were happy or that I was and so I really

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sort of set out on a quest to figure

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that out and that you know here we are

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over a dozen years later but a dozen

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years into this project and so up to

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that point I've done what everybody had

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done right I mean I take it a zillion

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seminars I'd read my way through all of

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the world's philosophies and religions

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and practiced stuff here and there and

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you know I mean I was decades into that

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type of search for wellbeing and I'd

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sort of come to the place where I felt

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like there really weren't any answers in

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any of those directions I'd given up on

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all of that for all of that you know

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intense amount of effort and it just

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occurred to me that you know I probably

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was either going to take one of a few

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tracks at that time one of the world's

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largest media company has had a senior

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executive position open to sort of

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consolidate and invent the next

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generation of media so I was thinking

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about that offer which would have seen

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me going to New York which was not where

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the power base of that company was and

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said that didn't seem like politically

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the best decision but it did seem like

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an interesting job right or continue to

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do the same thing with my companies or

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really just saying you know I've got to

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make a major life shift here and go try

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to figure this out which was exactly

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what I did

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and so I really just sort of liquidated

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everything and I went back to school and

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I picked up training and neuroscience

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and psychology and qualitative research

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I tried to go to start of the best

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institutions for each one of those

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different things and then from there set

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out on this course of research or trying

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to find the happiest people that I could

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to see if I could possibly become one of

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them and join their ranks and you're

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leaving a couple of parts out of the

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story that we kind of cover more in the

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first interview so I don't want to

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rehash all that but one is that you have

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a certain amount of baggage that you're

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bringing with you from a spiritual

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standpoint in terms of your upbringing

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and we all do but

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but that's there for you and that's

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really cool and number two is you're

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putting out there pretty good about who

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you are but you're still in a way being

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humble I mean you've done some pretty

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amazing things before this you know and

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you've written and you've accomplished

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both in the business world as well as

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kind of in some of these other worlds

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and and then I guess the other thing is

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you know you get into and you're gonna

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be a social scientist right so all of a

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sudden you're at Harvard and you're read

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over on the west coast where at Cal at

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CIS CIS you know a number I think which

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is I think the number one chronic

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qualitative school in the world for

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qualitative research you know you just

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plow into this stuff that everyone has

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looked at and said somebody needs to do

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this I think and you do it and now

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you've done it so we're still doing it

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yeah

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but I just want to add that it's it's

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quite an amazing journey that you've

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been on just amazing it is I I can't

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disagree at all it's been an incredible

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journey you know I feel like life has

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just sort of pulled me along like I've

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just sort of been grabbing on to this

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tale that's just you know running at

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full speed attached to some sort of

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creature and I'm just getting sort of

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pulled and pulled and pulled and pulled

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and pulled further and further and

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further and to in this case this rabbit

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hole I mean before that yeah it was a

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you know it was a bunch of other things

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whether it was you know I was

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instrumental I think you could easily

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say in the digital television revolution

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early on and there's all sorts of things

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like that so yeah I've had a pretty

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interesting track record I liked I you

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know it's interesting I was talking to

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somebody the other day and they were

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like you know if you look back it's it's

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kind of fascinating because you've just

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sort of consistently been involved in

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these projects that affect hundreds of

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millions or billions of people and I was

272
00:11:39,830 --> 00:11:37,410
thinking to myself gosh I sure hope this

273
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:39,840
is another one like that I hope that

274
00:11:44,810 --> 00:11:42,810
that wasn't broken that shade of events

275
00:11:46,940 --> 00:11:44,820
was it brokered what I shifted my life a

276
00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:46,950
dozen years ago and and headed in this

277
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:48,930
direction will see because I think this

278
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:51,210
is the one thing you know it wasn't it

279
00:11:53,570 --> 00:11:52,770
wasn't any of the media stuff it wasn't

280
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:53,580
any of the computer

281
00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:54,930
stuff it wasn't any of the business

282
00:11:59,800 --> 00:11:57,090
stuff wasn't any of the investing stuff

283
00:12:04,130 --> 00:11:59,810
wasn't any of that stuff that I think

284
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:04,140
really needed to be as widely accessible

285
00:12:08,270 --> 00:12:06,450
as humanly possible I think this is the

286
00:12:11,810 --> 00:12:08,280
stuff it needs to be as widely

287
00:12:13,820 --> 00:12:11,820
accessible as humanly possible and so

288
00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:13,830
you know we're working on that I think

289
00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:16,110
we're a long way from that at this point

290
00:12:20,060 --> 00:12:18,480
but you were getting up every day and

291
00:12:21,530 --> 00:12:20,070
working on it that's for sure well

292
00:12:23,090 --> 00:12:21,540
that's an incredible vision and I

293
00:12:24,890 --> 00:12:23,100
remember the first time that we met

294
00:12:28,010 --> 00:12:24,900
which is now probably five years ago I

295
00:12:30,410 --> 00:12:28,020
can't even count but that was your

296
00:12:32,210 --> 00:12:30,420
vision right then and it just struck me

297
00:12:34,070 --> 00:12:32,220
and it was awesome I think it was

298
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:34,080
somebody needs to have that vision but

299
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:36,090
your vision was you're sitting around

300
00:12:40,940 --> 00:12:38,010
with a bunch of people say hey man come

301
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:40,950
check out my little Sangha here and

302
00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:42,720
let's get a few people together to do a

303
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:46,110
course and Jeffrey Martin's going yeah

304
00:12:50,690 --> 00:12:47,760
but what if we turned on a billion

305
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:50,700
people you know what a billion people

306
00:12:55,730 --> 00:12:53,250
woke up what would that be like how

307
00:12:57,380 --> 00:12:55,740
would that be what would the economic

308
00:13:00,020 --> 00:12:57,390
model for that be what would the

309
00:13:04,010 --> 00:13:00,030
technology model for that be what would

310
00:13:06,220 --> 00:13:04,020
the data from that be you know what I

311
00:13:09,470 --> 00:13:06,230
mean and not talking about it in some

312
00:13:12,410 --> 00:13:09,480
new agey kind of the consciousness of

313
00:13:16,370 --> 00:13:12,420
the planet shifting but more from a kind

314
00:13:18,740 --> 00:13:16,380
of Silicon Valley marketing put it in a

315
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:18,750
spreadsheet kind of thing no what would

316
00:13:25,910 --> 00:13:22,410
that mean if a billion people made this

317
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:25,920
kind of transition that we say we can

318
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:27,930
measure so we say we can measure these

319
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:29,760
kind of things like well-being in these

320
00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:31,680
different ways and we all accept that

321
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:33,690
that we can to some extent and then

322
00:13:40,250 --> 00:13:36,770
you're saying well what if that shifted

323
00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:40,260
this way for a billion people that's

324
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:44,100
pretty audacious but you've been true to

325
00:13:49,430 --> 00:13:46,050
it you've been true to it from the very

326
00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:49,440
beginning that said recap for people

327
00:13:55,220 --> 00:13:51,180
because I think it's really important if

328
00:13:57,770 --> 00:13:55,230
someone did nothing other than the first

329
00:14:00,080 --> 00:13:57,780
phase of this work it would have been a

330
00:14:02,180 --> 00:14:00,090
huge contribution huge contribution the

331
00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:02,190
contribution that everyone sits back and

332
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:03,480
says well somebody should do that

333
00:14:07,129 --> 00:14:04,770
somebody should do that somebody should

334
00:14:10,489 --> 00:14:07,139
do that and you did it in terms of going

335
00:14:13,579 --> 00:14:10,499
to all these communities that say they

336
00:14:15,530 --> 00:14:13,589
nurture this enlightenment awakening

337
00:14:17,239 --> 00:14:15,540
thing and saying okay great

338
00:14:18,799 --> 00:14:17,249
who are they who are the people among

339
00:14:20,509 --> 00:14:18,809
your community who have achieved that

340
00:14:22,340 --> 00:14:20,519
and then you went and talked to them and

341
00:14:24,139 --> 00:14:22,350
now how many of those people this has

342
00:14:25,669 --> 00:14:24,149
been years ago is at the beginning your

343
00:14:28,939 --> 00:14:25,679
research but how many of those people

344
00:14:31,939 --> 00:14:28,949
have you talked to and systematically

345
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,949
tried to understand what they're doing

346
00:14:36,319 --> 00:14:33,600
which is phase one we're not going to

347
00:14:40,159 --> 00:14:36,329
get into Phase two yet but yeah phase

348
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:40,169
one involved in some cases those long

349
00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:41,970
format interviews the six that's we'll

350
00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:43,529
have our really digging in interviews

351
00:14:47,569 --> 00:14:45,470
some cases repeating those four people

352
00:14:49,549 --> 00:14:47,579
so we have some longitudinal research

353
00:14:52,759 --> 00:14:49,559
subjects that we still you know we'll

354
00:14:56,090 --> 00:14:52,769
check in with to this day at an in depth

355
00:14:58,400 --> 00:14:56,100
kind of way and then you know a lot of

356
00:14:59,900 --> 00:14:58,410
that was giving people a lot of the gold

357
00:15:01,970 --> 00:14:59,910
standard psychology measures that were

358
00:15:04,460 --> 00:15:01,980
out there across the wide range of sub

359
00:15:06,409 --> 00:15:04,470
psychology disciplines from well-being

360
00:15:07,999 --> 00:15:06,419
and positive psychology type stuff to

361
00:15:11,780 --> 00:15:08,009
developmental psychology personality

362
00:15:12,650 --> 00:15:11,790
psychology psychopathology stuff you

363
00:15:15,319 --> 00:15:12,660
name it

364
00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:15,329
and also physiological measurement so

365
00:15:25,519 --> 00:15:18,480
lots of brain stuff heart rate you know

366
00:15:27,499 --> 00:15:25,529
breath breath rate breath gases GSR you

367
00:15:29,449 --> 00:15:27,509
know sort of you name it even one thing

368
00:15:30,859 --> 00:15:29,459
that we haven't made it to yet I think

369
00:15:31,999 --> 00:15:30,869
even when I talked to you last I was

370
00:15:33,739 --> 00:15:32,009
sort of hoping to make it to there

371
00:15:35,809 --> 00:15:33,749
because my friend Deepak Chopra but

372
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:35,819
harping on me about it at the time he's

373
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:37,199
an MD you know he's a doctor

374
00:15:40,999 --> 00:15:38,970
and he's still and he's still a doctor

375
00:15:43,460 --> 00:15:41,009
like people think of him as like this

376
00:15:45,259 --> 00:15:43,470
author or whatever else but at heart I

377
00:15:47,239 --> 00:15:45,269
mean he's still basically a physician

378
00:15:49,549 --> 00:15:47,249
and so he was like you know you need to

379
00:15:50,809 --> 00:15:49,559
collect blood on these people and all of

380
00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:50,819
that and we actually have never gotten

381
00:15:53,659 --> 00:15:52,110
around to that I would still like to get

382
00:15:55,249 --> 00:15:53,669
around to looking at genetics and

383
00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:55,259
looking at genetic changes and looking

384
00:15:58,489 --> 00:15:56,850
at blood changes and stuff like that but

385
00:16:01,309 --> 00:15:58,499
you know I'm sort of more on the

386
00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:01,319
neuroscience electrons side for the

387
00:16:06,379 --> 00:16:04,169
horrible not so much at the wet lab side

388
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:06,389
of the world so so yeah we did all of

389
00:16:10,549 --> 00:16:08,730
that with thought it was about 1,200

390
00:16:13,789 --> 00:16:10,559
people who participated in some way in

391
00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:13,799
that initial phase of the project what

392
00:16:16,729 --> 00:16:15,480
we call phase one of the research

393
00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:16,739
projects it was a lot of people I was

394
00:16:20,809 --> 00:16:19,529
across every you know I think across as

395
00:16:24,679 --> 00:16:20,819
far as I can tell

396
00:16:27,169 --> 00:16:24,689
every major and most major major issue

397
00:16:30,139 --> 00:16:27,179
my nourish you know spiritual and

398
00:16:30,529 --> 00:16:30,149
religious traditions but also beyond

399
00:16:32,449 --> 00:16:30,539
that

400
00:16:35,989 --> 00:16:32,459
okay let's throw some out traditional

401
00:16:38,269 --> 00:16:35,999
Christian Catholic kind of did you hit

402
00:16:40,009 --> 00:16:38,279
that absolutely you know we had all the

403
00:16:42,019 --> 00:16:40,019
Abrahamic traditions someone who

404
00:16:43,699 --> 00:16:42,029
considers himself a Christian mystic did

405
00:16:46,039 --> 00:16:43,709
you have any of those in there oh yeah

406
00:16:47,659 --> 00:16:46,049
for sure and they're they're interesting

407
00:16:49,489 --> 00:16:47,669
because you know the funny thing about

408
00:16:52,579 --> 00:16:49,499
the Abrahamic traditions is that the

409
00:16:54,529 --> 00:16:52,589
Mystics are pushed to the margins and

410
00:16:57,769 --> 00:16:54,539
you know like they're never gonna get on

411
00:17:00,439 --> 00:16:57,779
Christian TV or you know whatever right

412
00:17:04,909 --> 00:17:00,449
they're like I'm so completely

413
00:17:06,289 --> 00:17:04,919
blackballed that it's amazing and I

414
00:17:07,730 --> 00:17:06,299
didn't know that until I started

415
00:17:09,529 --> 00:17:07,740
interviewing them it was fascinating to

416
00:17:11,569 --> 00:17:09,539
find that out you know yeah yeah I'm not

417
00:17:14,210 --> 00:17:11,579
trying to cut that off I'm just trying

418
00:17:17,329 --> 00:17:14,220
to give people a sense because you say

419
00:17:19,369 --> 00:17:17,339
that and I in some ways you're so

420
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:19,379
comfortable saying it that it doesn't

421
00:17:26,379 --> 00:17:23,039
fully capture what I envisioned it being

422
00:17:29,389 --> 00:17:26,389
like for you to set up these long-form

423
00:17:33,289 --> 00:17:29,399
six-hour interviews and now you're

424
00:17:36,409 --> 00:17:33,299
talking to a Zen master of a particular

425
00:17:39,619 --> 00:17:36,419
branch of Zen Buddhism that's different

426
00:17:41,629 --> 00:17:39,629
from this other slightly different one

427
00:17:43,999 --> 00:17:41,639
over here in this Korean one and this

428
00:17:46,909 --> 00:17:44,009
Vietnamese and you're talking to all of

429
00:17:49,610 --> 00:17:46,919
them in comparing and contrasting and

430
00:17:53,090 --> 00:17:49,620
nexuses Sufi missed or indexes I mean

431
00:17:54,619 --> 00:17:53,100
give people just a sense of how broad

432
00:17:56,090 --> 00:17:54,629
this is there so there are two

433
00:17:59,450 --> 00:17:56,100
interesting things about that the first

434
00:18:02,029 --> 00:17:59,460
is just how incredibly different they

435
00:18:05,570 --> 00:18:02,039
are within the same tradition right and

436
00:18:08,539 --> 00:18:05,580
so like I remember tera vaada Buddhism

437
00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:08,549
was you know this fascinating one

438
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:10,110
because it turned out that there were a

439
00:18:14,990 --> 00:18:12,000
lot of American terawatt of Buddhist

440
00:18:16,999 --> 00:18:15,000
teachers which made it really convenient

441
00:18:18,289 --> 00:18:17,009
right because language barriers are

442
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:18,299
brutal when you're trying to get at

443
00:18:22,850 --> 00:18:20,850
someone's internal phenomenology and so

444
00:18:24,889 --> 00:18:22,860
I was like super grateful that we hit

445
00:18:26,899 --> 00:18:24,899
this version of Buddhism where there

446
00:18:28,850 --> 00:18:26,909
were lots of a lots of people who spoke

447
00:18:31,759 --> 00:18:28,860
English as their first language that she

448
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:31,769
could go talk to but what was very you

449
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:31,919
know

450
00:18:35,419 --> 00:18:33,450
frustrating about that

451
00:18:37,460 --> 00:18:35,429
is that like everyone that you talked to

452
00:18:38,899 --> 00:18:37,470
they all had the same general map so it

453
00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:38,909
was all like you know arising and

454
00:18:43,370 --> 00:18:40,710
passing away and stream entry and first

455
00:18:45,129 --> 00:18:43,380
path and all that stuff but like you

456
00:18:47,149 --> 00:18:45,139
would ask them okay well what is your

457
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:47,159
phenomenological set of characteristics

458
00:18:50,419 --> 00:18:48,480
for determining someone who's reached

459
00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:50,429
first path or whatever writer had stream

460
00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:53,340
entry or whatever and like they were

461
00:18:57,019 --> 00:18:55,200
just so totally different like one

462
00:18:58,850 --> 00:18:57,029
person's list for a rising and passing

463
00:19:01,100 --> 00:18:58,860
away match to another person's list for

464
00:19:02,750 --> 00:19:01,110
stream entry or whatever else and you

465
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:02,760
just got this sense like you know holy

466
00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:05,130
cow this is kind of nuts so there was a

467
00:19:08,509 --> 00:19:06,809
lot of difficulty around stuff like that

468
00:19:10,430 --> 00:19:08,519
you forget about cross tradition it's

469
00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:10,440
like within the same tradition it was

470
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:12,480
and it makes sense right because you're

471
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:15,210
trying to interpret these texts that are

472
00:19:19,250 --> 00:19:17,610
a zillion years old right I mean I

473
00:19:20,930 --> 00:19:19,260
there's this fascinating dissertation

474
00:19:22,759 --> 00:19:20,940
done by this lady named Beryl Seder

475
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:22,769
well who's I hope I'm pronouncing that

476
00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:23,730
right because I've never actually heard

477
00:19:27,649 --> 00:19:26,130
of pronounce but it was from one of the

478
00:19:29,509 --> 00:19:27,659
universities in Pennsylvania and she

479
00:19:31,669 --> 00:19:29,519
looked at the new thought movement in

480
00:19:34,009 --> 00:19:31,679
America and she was a period historian

481
00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:34,019
right and so she just she was interested

482
00:19:39,379 --> 00:19:36,000
in like women's power dynamics within

483
00:19:41,149 --> 00:19:39,389
society and for whatever bizarre reason

484
00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:41,159
she wound up picking the new thought

485
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:42,809
movement as the lens to look at that

486
00:19:49,310 --> 00:19:46,320
through for this very hardcore period

487
00:19:51,289 --> 00:19:49,320
historian style dissertation so I ran

488
00:19:54,409 --> 00:19:51,299
across that when I was researching the

489
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:54,419
self-help community prior to researching

490
00:19:57,620 --> 00:19:56,010
all of this stuff I was looking into

491
00:19:58,820 --> 00:19:57,630
self up community mostly because I was

492
00:20:01,190 --> 00:19:58,830
trying to figure out what I should use

493
00:20:02,990 --> 00:20:01,200
myself you know what what actually might

494
00:20:04,940 --> 00:20:03,000
work in the self-help Commuter to make

495
00:20:08,210 --> 00:20:04,950
me happier right and so I ran across

496
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:08,220
this this dissertation on the new

497
00:20:11,930 --> 00:20:10,559
thought movement and now the new thought

498
00:20:13,850 --> 00:20:11,940
movement occurred like a hundred and

499
00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:13,860
fifty years ago - 100 years ago or so

500
00:20:20,350 --> 00:20:18,000
you know roughly and so and it occurred

501
00:20:24,049 --> 00:20:20,360
in America and it occurred in English

502
00:20:26,060 --> 00:20:24,059
right and so in theory any of us ought

503
00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:26,070
to be able to pick up one of those books

504
00:20:29,870 --> 00:20:28,320
and understand what the heck they're

505
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:29,880
saying and of course that's the it's

506
00:20:33,889 --> 00:20:31,440
these are all the books and all the

507
00:20:35,870 --> 00:20:33,899
works that form the foundation of the

508
00:20:38,149 --> 00:20:35,880
modern new thought movement and a lot of

509
00:20:39,740 --> 00:20:38,159
some degree the New Age movement and the

510
00:20:41,389 --> 00:20:39,750
power of thought movement and the secret

511
00:20:44,629 --> 00:20:41,399
and all of them right they all point

512
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:44,639
back to these people and I think you

513
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:46,320
know if you go back and you read those

514
00:20:50,210 --> 00:20:47,370
books you think

515
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:50,220
I totally understand this no problem

516
00:20:54,770 --> 00:20:52,050
right but then you read Barrels

517
00:20:57,260 --> 00:20:54,780
dissertation and you realize that you

518
00:20:59,080 --> 00:20:57,270
don't understand anything that you're

519
00:21:02,799 --> 00:20:59,090
reading that it is embedded in a

520
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:02,809
socio-economic context that you are so

521
00:21:09,710 --> 00:21:07,200
completely removed from in 2019 you know

522
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:09,720
I mean the late 1800s and how they were

523
00:21:13,549 --> 00:21:12,240
thinking about spirit being in these

524
00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:13,559
debates that they were having around

525
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:15,630
with spirit infused in matter or was it

526
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:16,890
separate from matter and how did that

527
00:21:20,810 --> 00:21:18,480
relate to women's power dynamics and

528
00:21:23,030 --> 00:21:20,820
Society and how is that language all

529
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:23,040
coded through all of these texts in ways

530
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:24,570
that you and I would never pick up the

531
00:21:28,850 --> 00:21:27,090
nuances of so we so we read those books

532
00:21:29,930 --> 00:21:28,860
and we're like oh we totally understand

533
00:21:31,730 --> 00:21:29,940
these and the reality is we don't

534
00:21:33,169 --> 00:21:31,740
understand them at all that's what you

535
00:21:35,150 --> 00:21:33,179
learned from reading her dissertation is

536
00:21:37,310 --> 00:21:35,160
you can't read these people's books in

537
00:21:39,980 --> 00:21:37,320
English from like a hundred years ago

538
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:39,990
and understand their points and

539
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:41,730
understand the nuances of their points

540
00:21:44,419 --> 00:21:43,290
and so I don't think it's surprising

541
00:21:46,130 --> 00:21:44,429
that if you sit down with a bunch of

542
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:46,140
Tara vadas Buddhist teachers in the West

543
00:21:51,140 --> 00:21:49,170
and they're deriving their ideas from

544
00:21:53,299 --> 00:21:51,150
books that are hundreds of years old

545
00:21:55,010 --> 00:21:53,309
written in a non-english language that

546
00:21:57,410 --> 00:21:55,020
they can't come to some sort of

547
00:21:59,750 --> 00:21:57,420
agreement on what the phenomenology

548
00:22:01,640 --> 00:21:59,760
should be of their various stages or

549
00:22:03,919 --> 00:22:01,650
even what the end point should look like

550
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:03,929
of their thing or whatever else right

551
00:22:07,370 --> 00:22:05,730
because we can't understand stuff that

552
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:07,380
was written 100 years ago for crying out

553
00:22:12,260 --> 00:22:10,290
loud in our own language you and it

554
00:22:14,210 --> 00:22:12,270
seems like it should be clear as day

555
00:22:16,490 --> 00:22:14,220
when we read it you know until you read

556
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:16,500
a period scholars work that just teaches

557
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:18,210
you you don't have any idea what you're

558
00:22:22,850 --> 00:22:20,610
actually looking at so I you know I

559
00:22:25,070 --> 00:22:22,860
think these it's it's things like that

560
00:22:26,810 --> 00:22:25,080
that help me to contextualize and you

561
00:22:29,630 --> 00:22:26,820
know just sort of be cool with it when I

562
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:29,640
sit down with folks because I just sort

563
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:31,200
of understand the situation that they're

564
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:32,960
in even if they don't necessarily

565
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:35,130
understand the situation that they're

566
00:22:37,850 --> 00:22:36,450
and you know you go talk to a bunch of

567
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:37,860
new thought people today and they all

568
00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:39,330
think that they totally understand that

569
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:40,980
old New Thought literature you know

570
00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:42,510
they're never gonna run across barrel

571
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:44,400
Saders dissertation for God's sakes

572
00:22:48,530 --> 00:22:46,890
right or a book she actually turned it

573
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:48,540
into a book it's watered down a little

574
00:22:51,770 --> 00:22:49,650
bit in the book but it's still a

575
00:22:53,390 --> 00:22:51,780
powerful book it's called each mind a

576
00:22:54,620 --> 00:22:53,400
kingdom or every mind a kingdom or

577
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:54,630
something like that's if you're into

578
00:22:59,030 --> 00:22:56,610
that kind of thing man that's like an

579
00:22:59,900 --> 00:22:59,040
amazing book well I'm glad that you're

580
00:23:03,560 --> 00:22:59,910
into that kind of

581
00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:03,570
thing I do and I think that's maybe the

582
00:23:10,340 --> 00:23:06,510
the point of this work that you're doing

583
00:23:13,550 --> 00:23:10,350
because you do approach it so much like

584
00:23:17,020 --> 00:23:13,560
a social scientist on one hand and then

585
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:17,030
on the other hand you're fully in as a

586
00:23:24,620 --> 00:23:20,490
subject as a seeker and you wear those

587
00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:24,630
two hats and you wear them quite bravely

588
00:23:29,570 --> 00:23:26,880
and I love that about you

589
00:23:32,270 --> 00:23:29,580
the methodology were just mentioning the

590
00:23:33,620 --> 00:23:32,280
more I learn about your methodology and

591
00:23:36,020 --> 00:23:33,630
some of the presentations you've done

592
00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:36,030
and talk about it the you know we could

593
00:23:40,220 --> 00:23:37,860
talk probably for hours and some of the

594
00:23:42,740 --> 00:23:40,230
subtleties of what you've discovered

595
00:23:44,570 --> 00:23:42,750
there and how that is important in

596
00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:44,580
understanding your work but I just threw

597
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:47,430
out a couple is one I love these talks

598
00:23:50,090 --> 00:23:48,810
that you give and you can see you get

599
00:23:52,820 --> 00:23:50,100
pretty passionate about some of these

600
00:23:55,970 --> 00:23:52,830
things but you'll talk about trusting

601
00:23:59,300 --> 00:23:55,980
the current experience of that

602
00:24:01,430 --> 00:23:59,310
participant in these surveys so not what

603
00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:01,440
they thought thirty years ago and they

604
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:03,180
started their practice but what they

605
00:24:07,730 --> 00:24:06,000
experienced and think now and maybe you

606
00:24:12,020 --> 00:24:07,740
can talk to why that's important and

607
00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:12,030
also like you just mentioned separating

608
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:15,120
that from what they're supposed to

609
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:17,010
believe what their tradition teaches

610
00:24:24,050 --> 00:24:20,250
what their texts teach and you seem to

611
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:24,060
take great pains to really develop a

612
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:27,120
methodology that needed to focus on the

613
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:29,730
data in a particular way in order to get

614
00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:32,310
some of the questions that you wanted

615
00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:34,110
answered and I just think that's awesome

616
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,230
do you want to speak to that at all sure

617
00:24:40,750 --> 00:24:39,360
I'm happy to speak to that anything you

618
00:24:42,350 --> 00:24:40,760
really want to talk about it's great

619
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:42,360
that's right

620
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:44,970
so I intentionally did not read anything

621
00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:47,850
you know I haven't read any of my

622
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:49,950
subjects books even though I often would

623
00:24:53,540 --> 00:24:51,930
leave their houses with their books you

624
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:53,550
know they would give me as a gift if

625
00:24:58,460 --> 00:24:55,530
they could hoping that I would read it

626
00:25:00,680 --> 00:24:58,470
probably but I didn't read any of them

627
00:25:02,690 --> 00:25:00,690
and the reason that I didn't read any of

628
00:25:05,030 --> 00:25:02,700
them is because our project has a very

629
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:05,040
specific philosophy around that in terms

630
00:25:09,740 --> 00:25:06,930
of a scientific philosophy if you will

631
00:25:12,290 --> 00:25:09,750
and that is that what I really want to

632
00:25:13,580 --> 00:25:12,300
get at is lived experience right and so

633
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:13,590
I don't I know

634
00:25:18,669 --> 00:25:15,690
that I cannot I know just from sitting

635
00:25:21,769 --> 00:25:18,679
down if it takes six to twelve hours to

636
00:25:24,409 --> 00:25:21,779
get to a point where you think that you

637
00:25:27,649 --> 00:25:24,419
probably understand enough of someone's

638
00:25:30,049 --> 00:25:27,659
phenomenology and they spend the first

639
00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:30,059
atleast hour or two talking exactly like

640
00:25:33,890 --> 00:25:32,340
they would in a book you know and that's

641
00:25:36,590 --> 00:25:33,900
not enough to really understand

642
00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:36,600
therefore not that it takes hours from

643
00:25:41,810 --> 00:25:39,120
that point to really come to some sort

644
00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:41,820
of meaningful understanding that just

645
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:44,100
you know that tells me that maybe I

646
00:25:46,730 --> 00:25:45,330
should read their books before I sit

647
00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:46,740
down with them as a starting point but I

648
00:25:49,850 --> 00:25:48,270
don't even do that because it's frozen

649
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:49,860
in time at some point right who knows

650
00:25:53,389 --> 00:25:51,600
how many years ago a book was written I

651
00:25:55,850 --> 00:25:53,399
need to know who they are now I need to

652
00:25:57,950 --> 00:25:55,860
understand their phenomenology now when

653
00:26:01,760 --> 00:25:57,960
you say phenomenology bring that down to

654
00:26:03,740 --> 00:26:01,770
a concrete level that any spiritual

655
00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:03,750
seeker quote-unquote listening to this

656
00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:06,960
show would understand I mean that's kind

657
00:26:11,659 --> 00:26:10,110
of a science II term huh and if it's in

658
00:26:13,340 --> 00:26:11,669
a philosophy term of course it's also

659
00:26:16,310 --> 00:26:13,350
used in philosophy it comes out of

660
00:26:18,380 --> 00:26:16,320
philosophy but basically it's all that

661
00:26:21,110 --> 00:26:18,390
means is trying to understand someone's

662
00:26:23,330 --> 00:26:21,120
internal experience really just trying

663
00:26:25,610 --> 00:26:23,340
to get your arms as much as you possibly

664
00:26:28,130 --> 00:26:25,620
can with as much accuracy and as much

665
00:26:30,980 --> 00:26:28,140
comprehensiveness around someone's

666
00:26:35,149 --> 00:26:30,990
internal way that they are experiencing

667
00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:35,159
feeling of oneness feeling of internal

668
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:38,940
peace ability to shut down the mind all

669
00:26:42,830 --> 00:26:40,890
these things we hear and then you're

670
00:26:46,039 --> 00:26:42,840
trying to as a social scientist say okay

671
00:26:48,289 --> 00:26:46,049
what does that mean to you not what does

672
00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:48,299
that mean in some religious context or

673
00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:51,120
spiritual context but yeah how does that

674
00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:52,289
show up in your moment to moment

675
00:26:57,049 --> 00:26:55,020
perception and I you know it's

676
00:26:58,190 --> 00:26:57,059
interesting because one of the things

677
00:27:00,680 --> 00:26:58,200
what another one of the fascinating

678
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:00,690
things that we learned very early on was

679
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:02,690
that people are not speaking in metaphor

680
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:06,570
they are trying to speak to you with as

681
00:27:10,730 --> 00:27:08,850
accurate a description in language as

682
00:27:12,529 --> 00:27:10,740
they can of their experience right and

683
00:27:15,529 --> 00:27:12,539
so like one of the things that when they

684
00:27:17,930 --> 00:27:15,539
say oneness like that is an accurate

685
00:27:20,510 --> 00:27:17,940
description to them of their it's as

686
00:27:21,860 --> 00:27:20,520
accurate as they can get in language of

687
00:27:24,020 --> 00:27:21,870
their experience it's not some sort of

688
00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:24,030
metaphor right or when they say when I

689
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:26,100
transitioned it was an instant and it

690
00:27:28,470 --> 00:27:26,410
was

691
00:27:31,310 --> 00:27:28,480
almost like I woke up from a dream right

692
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:31,320
that's that that's like as good a

693
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:34,930
concrete example as they can as they

694
00:27:38,910 --> 00:27:36,910
feel like they can provide you as

695
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:38,920
another human being they're not trying

696
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:41,050
to provide some metaphor some loosey

697
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:42,970
goosey things some get you in the

698
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:44,770
ballpark type of thing they're like okay

699
00:27:50,430 --> 00:27:47,410
searching my entire experience what is

700
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:50,440
the most concrete example that I could

701
00:27:54,060 --> 00:27:52,330
provide to this person that I'm talking

702
00:27:55,860 --> 00:27:54,070
to so one thing that's interesting about

703
00:27:58,170 --> 00:27:55,870
this population of people is that they

704
00:28:00,360 --> 00:27:58,180
use their language typically very

705
00:28:02,610 --> 00:28:00,370
precisely and very carefully and

706
00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:02,620
thought-out very carefully and it's

707
00:28:08,730 --> 00:28:05,260
often it's often an attempt to directly

708
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:08,740
convey their experience and then the

709
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:10,450
rest of the world sort of sees it

710
00:28:12,210 --> 00:28:11,770
different than that which is sort of

711
00:28:14,370 --> 00:28:12,220
funny

712
00:28:16,110 --> 00:28:14,380
all right people often think Oh waking

713
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:16,120
up for a dream it's like some metaphor

714
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:18,880
it's like oh now my mind can spin off in

715
00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:20,110
a thousand different ways that the

716
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:21,700
person might know they mean like when

717
00:28:26,940 --> 00:28:24,010
you wake up in the morning and you were

718
00:28:28,770 --> 00:28:26,950
having a dream and then suddenly you're

719
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:28,780
not having a dream and you're awake

720
00:28:33,030 --> 00:28:31,450
they're like that exact experience like

721
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:33,040
that's what I am referring that's it

722
00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:34,690
it's like that's as close as I could

723
00:28:38,430 --> 00:28:36,940
don't spin it off into some sort of you

724
00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:38,440
know what did I mean metaphorically

725
00:28:42,690 --> 00:28:40,240
about waking up from a dream taking some

726
00:28:44,010 --> 00:28:42,700
poetic license so it's stuff like that

727
00:28:45,630 --> 00:28:44,020
you know from a phenomenological

728
00:28:47,310 --> 00:28:45,640
standpoint that you wind up discovering

729
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:47,320
I should say phenomenology of course

730
00:28:50,790 --> 00:28:49,120
deals with anybody's internal state not

731
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:50,800
just these people's internal state it's

732
00:28:54,450 --> 00:28:52,960
a method of inquiry into that but yeah

733
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:54,460
that's the types of things that these

734
00:28:58,350 --> 00:28:55,810
people would report obviously a

735
00:28:59,550 --> 00:28:58,360
tremendous sense of peace you know

736
00:29:02,820 --> 00:28:59,560
that's really I think the most

737
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:02,830
fundamental thing for a long time I had

738
00:29:07,950 --> 00:29:06,010
sort of this list of stuff that people

739
00:29:09,570 --> 00:29:07,960
would add stuff to and I would cross

740
00:29:11,730 --> 00:29:09,580
stuff off of and I was always looking

741
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:11,740
for the common denominator and I think

742
00:29:15,050 --> 00:29:13,210
maybe the last time I was on the show I

743
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:15,060
don't remember if I told this story but

744
00:29:18,810 --> 00:29:17,290
you know this is one moment where I was

745
00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:18,820
driving from a research interview in

746
00:29:23,460 --> 00:29:20,590
Springfield Illinois up to another one

747
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:23,470
in Chicago and the person in Springfield

748
00:29:28,140 --> 00:29:26,890
Illinois had crossed the very last item

749
00:29:31,950 --> 00:29:28,150
that I thought was going to be a

750
00:29:33,870 --> 00:29:31,960
commonality off of my list and it was I

751
00:29:37,230 --> 00:29:33,880
was years into it at that point right

752
00:29:39,220 --> 00:29:37,240
and it was just like this devastating

753
00:29:41,820 --> 00:29:39,230
personal moment for me I was

754
00:29:44,590 --> 00:29:41,830
I remember I was like literally crying

755
00:29:46,750 --> 00:29:44,600
for the first part of that drive because

756
00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:46,760
of the impact and that sounds ridiculous

757
00:29:51,149 --> 00:29:48,320
but I was like you know I spent all

758
00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:51,159
these years I spent all this money I

759
00:29:56,529 --> 00:29:53,870
spent I've put in was my heart and soul

760
00:29:59,139 --> 00:29:56,539
into this and it and that last guy just

761
00:30:01,570 --> 00:29:59,149
basically made it fail it was sort of

762
00:30:04,330 --> 00:30:01,580
what it felt like and then by the end of

763
00:30:05,919 --> 00:30:04,340
that Drive by the time I got to there's

764
00:30:09,639 --> 00:30:05,929
little outside Chicago sort of in an

765
00:30:11,950 --> 00:30:09,649
Indiana suburb by the time I reached

766
00:30:13,419 --> 00:30:11,960
there I'd sort of recontextualized and I

767
00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:13,429
realized that I'd been looking at the

768
00:30:18,190 --> 00:30:15,110
trees and had missed the entire forest

769
00:30:21,009 --> 00:30:18,200
and so this list that I had were a list

770
00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:21,019
of trees and they'd caused me to miss

771
00:30:24,789 --> 00:30:23,240
this the overall forest right and that

772
00:30:27,070 --> 00:30:24,799
the thing that was common across all of

773
00:30:29,230 --> 00:30:27,080
these people was sort of this

774
00:30:32,350 --> 00:30:29,240
fundamental shift in their core

775
00:30:34,210 --> 00:30:32,360
psychology away from a sense of

776
00:30:36,700 --> 00:30:34,220
discontentment that's common certainly

777
00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:36,710
was common in me at that time and it's

778
00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:39,110
common in most of the mainstream you

779
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:40,760
know population of humanity around the

780
00:30:43,930 --> 00:30:41,840
world there's just sort of this

781
00:30:44,980 --> 00:30:43,940
fundamental sense of discontentment that

782
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:44,990
we all have at the root of our

783
00:30:48,879 --> 00:30:47,330
psychology and it manifests in all kinds

784
00:30:51,610 --> 00:30:48,889
of ways you know in the extremes it's

785
00:30:53,860 --> 00:30:51,620
fear and worry and you know anxiety and

786
00:30:56,110 --> 00:30:53,870
stuff like that but it no matter who you

787
00:30:57,850 --> 00:30:56,120
are no matter how great your life is you

788
00:31:00,789 --> 00:30:57,860
still have the sense that something is

789
00:31:02,740 --> 00:31:00,799
just not quite right and so you know

790
00:31:03,250 --> 00:31:02,750
your mind is constantly trying to figure

791
00:31:05,649 --> 00:31:03,260
that out

792
00:31:07,149 --> 00:31:05,659
and for a normal and this is normal

793
00:31:09,820 --> 00:31:07,159
right this is what psychology would

794
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:09,830
consider normal and healthy your mind is

795
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:11,690
just sort of constantly trying to figure

796
00:31:17,159 --> 00:31:13,490
this out you know and it's and it's like

797
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:17,169
okay well when I have you know a Learjet

798
00:31:23,259 --> 00:31:20,690
then I'll finally be you know then that

799
00:31:25,269 --> 00:31:23,269
that will finally be quenched right and

800
00:31:27,009 --> 00:31:25,279
then you get the Learjet right and

801
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:27,019
you're like happy for an hour and a half

802
00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:28,970
or something and it's quenched for an

803
00:31:31,450 --> 00:31:30,080
hour and a half or something right and

804
00:31:35,139 --> 00:31:31,460
in your mind it's like okay well the

805
00:31:37,990 --> 00:31:35,149
Learjet didn't do it I must need another

806
00:31:41,169 --> 00:31:38,000
child it's just one more child that I

807
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:41,179
need and so let's go off insert did not

808
00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:43,250
go right and it's like are like the

809
00:31:47,529 --> 00:31:45,289
normal human mind is just constantly

810
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:47,539
generating all of these goals most of

811
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:50,720
you know some human minds generate very

812
00:31:53,090 --> 00:31:52,370
simple goals that can constantly be

813
00:31:55,250 --> 00:31:53,100
achieved

814
00:31:57,650 --> 00:31:55,260
or maybe you know you do get the learjet

815
00:32:00,409 --> 00:31:57,660
if you have a more complicated you have

816
00:32:02,539 --> 00:32:00,419
a more sort of aggressive human mind

817
00:32:04,159 --> 00:32:02,549
whatever but you know the more of these

818
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:04,169
things you get the more you sort of give

819
00:32:08,539 --> 00:32:06,510
up on happiness I think it's funny the

820
00:32:10,490 --> 00:32:08,549
most accomplished people you know I know

821
00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:10,500
I've just had the privilege to interact

822
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:12,240
with a lot of people who sort of run the

823
00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:14,610
world and they're often the most unhappy

824
00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:16,320
people that you can imagine because

825
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:18,030
they've sort of got everything you know

826
00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:19,770
it's like what goal have they not

827
00:32:25,220 --> 00:32:22,320
achieved in their life by this point and

828
00:32:27,529 --> 00:32:25,230
they've just given up on anything you

829
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:27,539
know filling that void or ending that

830
00:32:31,610 --> 00:32:29,970
fundamental discontentment and so for

831
00:32:33,649 --> 00:32:31,620
them it's just you know mostly just full

832
00:32:35,419 --> 00:32:33,659
steam ahead on the accomplishment track

833
00:32:37,250 --> 00:32:35,429
because that's what there is right and

834
00:32:38,990 --> 00:32:37,260
at least the more things you win on the

835
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:39,000
more you get the little brief periods of

836
00:32:43,789 --> 00:32:41,130
peace or whatever else whereas the

837
00:32:45,890 --> 00:32:43,799
average person I think you know lots of

838
00:32:47,570 --> 00:32:45,900
times they think you know they they they

839
00:32:49,399 --> 00:32:47,580
have all of these cultural things that

840
00:32:52,669 --> 00:32:49,409
that they're told that they should get

841
00:32:54,409 --> 00:32:52,679
maybe like a Learjet right and they're

842
00:32:57,260 --> 00:32:54,419
never going to get it and so they just

843
00:32:59,600 --> 00:32:57,270
assume well I could have been happy if I

844
00:33:01,130 --> 00:32:59,610
could have had some of those things

845
00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:01,140
right and so they just sort of accept

846
00:33:04,669 --> 00:33:03,510
their lot you know to some degree but

847
00:33:08,570 --> 00:33:04,679
the reality is it's just this

848
00:33:10,430 --> 00:33:08,580
fundamental heart of human psychology of

849
00:33:12,350 --> 00:33:10,440
traditional human psychology as it seems

850
00:33:14,090 --> 00:33:12,360
to have evolved to this point and what

851
00:33:15,620 --> 00:33:14,100
shifts with fundamental well-being is

852
00:33:17,060 --> 00:33:15,630
the most amazing thing ever

853
00:33:18,260 --> 00:33:17,070
even though it's the most ordinary thing

854
00:33:19,970 --> 00:33:18,270
ever and of course you hear people say

855
00:33:22,490 --> 00:33:19,980
phrases like that and it's very

856
00:33:24,770 --> 00:33:22,500
confusing I think to the average person

857
00:33:26,419 --> 00:33:24,780
but what the it's it's what's so

858
00:33:28,490 --> 00:33:26,429
ordinary about it is there's just like

859
00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:28,500
this little shift that happens way at

860
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:30,809
the bottom of your psychology away from

861
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:32,640
that fundamental sense of discontentment

862
00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:34,710
and towards a sense that everything is

863
00:33:42,590 --> 00:33:37,710
really okay when did you know that on

864
00:33:45,770 --> 00:33:42,600
that drive to Chicago okay drive to

865
00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:45,780
Chicago you saw the trees for something

866
00:33:50,419 --> 00:33:48,720
more than trees for a forest and then

867
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:50,429
you said wait a minute

868
00:33:56,990 --> 00:33:53,850
I can maybe help people get to the

869
00:34:00,370 --> 00:33:57,000
forest and that launches you on this

870
00:34:03,740 --> 00:34:00,380
path of saying okay let's create this

871
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:03,750
systematized approach to taking what

872
00:34:06,860 --> 00:34:05,730
these people are doing generalizing and

873
00:34:09,770 --> 00:34:06,870
turning into

874
00:34:12,409 --> 00:34:09,780
course if you will and then that becomes

875
00:34:15,649 --> 00:34:12,419
the focus of what you do next and you've

876
00:34:17,450 --> 00:34:15,659
now done that collected an amazing

877
00:34:20,090 --> 00:34:17,460
amount of data all along again the

878
00:34:22,970 --> 00:34:20,100
social scientist in you demands that you

879
00:34:24,470 --> 00:34:22,980
measure measure measure because no one

880
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:24,480
else everyone else is talking about this

881
00:34:28,669 --> 00:34:26,490
and they're not measuring it in a

882
00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:28,679
way that becomes really important as the

883
00:34:34,220 --> 00:34:31,440
story goes on so bring this more

884
00:34:37,369 --> 00:34:34,230
up-to-date than how that all unfolds so

885
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:37,379
basically the day came when a phase one

886
00:34:42,020 --> 00:34:39,450
ended and phase one had been us talking

887
00:34:44,030 --> 00:34:42,030
to people who had only experienced who

888
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:44,040
had already experienced this sometimes

889
00:34:48,590 --> 00:34:47,280
and oftentimes for decades you know that

890
00:34:50,450 --> 00:34:48,600
we had people in the sample that were as

891
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:50,460
little as over just over a year which

892
00:34:53,659 --> 00:34:52,110
was our minimum cutoff for persistence

893
00:34:56,240 --> 00:34:53,669
we had to be in it for just over a year

894
00:34:59,420 --> 00:34:56,250
persistently all the way up to decades

895
00:35:01,070 --> 00:34:59,430
but motor what our average was I don't

896
00:35:03,530 --> 00:35:01,080
talk about those numbers as much anymore

897
00:35:05,810 --> 00:35:03,540
so they're not in my head for for many

898
00:35:07,340 --> 00:35:05,820
years but I mean I want to say the

899
00:35:08,660 --> 00:35:07,350
average persistence was like seven years

900
00:35:11,780 --> 00:35:08,670
or twelve years or something like that

901
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:11,790
and so you know most of the sample had

902
00:35:19,970 --> 00:35:15,450
been in it for a while and so what's

903
00:35:22,660 --> 00:35:19,980
interesting is that the the date well

904
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:22,670
the day basically came when post

905
00:35:27,130 --> 00:35:24,960
analysis was not enough you know you

906
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:27,140
want to know like what's actually

907
00:35:31,460 --> 00:35:29,310
changing in an individual who were these

908
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:31,470
people before it was very clear to me

909
00:35:34,250 --> 00:35:32,730
that they were not able to accurately

910
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:34,260
remember or represent who they were

911
00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:35,970
before you know one of the things that

912
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:37,440
we know about well-being research in

913
00:35:40,910 --> 00:35:38,730
general is that when somebody gets

914
00:35:42,740 --> 00:35:40,920
happier and if they have a persistent

915
00:35:44,210 --> 00:35:42,750
shift to being happier they sort of

916
00:35:46,670 --> 00:35:44,220
color their entire history with that

917
00:35:49,130 --> 00:35:46,680
happiness you know it's it's frustrating

918
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:49,140
I think for people that that make legit

919
00:35:52,910 --> 00:35:51,090
self-help products that actually do help

920
00:35:54,350 --> 00:35:52,920
people because those people will often

921
00:35:55,730 --> 00:35:54,360
get to the end of the process and

922
00:35:58,340 --> 00:35:55,740
they're clearly happier but they'll

923
00:35:59,810 --> 00:35:58,350
insist that they're not you know it's

924
00:36:02,780 --> 00:35:59,820
because they've forgotten how unhappy

925
00:36:04,580 --> 00:36:02,790
they were at the beginning of that of

926
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:04,590
going to that course or whatever it was

927
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:06,570
you know that shifted them so our human

928
00:36:14,420 --> 00:36:13,050
system renormalize no way to know who

929
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:14,430
the hell these people were I mean they

930
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:15,690
were telling me their stories a little

931
00:36:18,620 --> 00:36:17,130
bit about you know who they were before

932
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:18,630
but I just knew that I couldn't believe

933
00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:20,710
any of it except in broad

934
00:36:25,230 --> 00:36:23,200
strokes and so the day came basically

935
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:25,240
where we wanted a B data you know where

936
00:36:29,820 --> 00:36:28,000
we wanted before-and-after data and so

937
00:36:34,589 --> 00:36:29,830
that's where the finders course protocol

938
00:36:35,849 --> 00:36:34,599
came from so we started I always

939
00:36:37,140 --> 00:36:35,859
believed that we would get to this with

940
00:36:39,870 --> 00:36:37,150
brain stimulation which is what we're

941
00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:39,880
working on right now hard core like

942
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:42,310
weird that's our that's one of our two

943
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:44,410
most major projects right now because

944
00:36:50,790 --> 00:36:46,530
the technology is sort of finally there

945
00:36:52,650 --> 00:36:50,800
but back back then five years ago it was

946
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:52,660
very clear and I would say six seven

947
00:36:56,370 --> 00:36:53,650
years ago when we first started thinking

948
00:36:59,310 --> 00:36:56,380
about these creating a protocol it was

949
00:37:02,579 --> 00:36:59,320
very clear to me that brain stimulation

950
00:37:04,349 --> 00:37:02,589
was not going to get there you know we

951
00:37:06,599 --> 00:37:04,359
we tried everything at the time I was a

952
00:37:09,260 --> 00:37:06,609
professor in Hong Kong for a year and

953
00:37:11,490 --> 00:37:09,270
doing research interviews in Asia and

954
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:11,500
being in Hongkong I took advantage of

955
00:37:15,210 --> 00:37:13,330
the you know reduced regulation and

956
00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:15,220
litigious environment and all of that

957
00:37:18,570 --> 00:37:17,260
and we just really went to town we had a

958
00:37:20,839 --> 00:37:18,580
neuroscience lab there at Hong Kong

959
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:20,849
Polytechnic of a 64 channel AG system

960
00:37:25,950 --> 00:37:23,200
and so we just really went to town

961
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:25,960
testing brain stem and it was just clear

962
00:37:28,530 --> 00:37:27,250
that none of them were gonna reach the

963
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:28,540
regions of interest in the brain that

964
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:30,880
we'd previously identified using other

965
00:37:36,450 --> 00:37:34,480
neuroscience work and so we went back

966
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:36,460
and we went to the questionnaires that

967
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:38,410
we had people fill out and all of the

968
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:40,330
data and just tried to find anything

969
00:37:44,460 --> 00:37:42,250
that might help us get to an a/b model

970
00:37:45,810 --> 00:37:44,470
and this is gonna sound funny probably

971
00:37:49,050 --> 00:37:45,820
to listeners I think it always sounds

972
00:37:51,450 --> 00:37:49,060
funny to people but we asked a question

973
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:51,460
I mean no kidding right we asked the

974
00:37:57,870 --> 00:37:54,930
question that was so what worked for you

975
00:38:01,290 --> 00:37:57,880
right and people answered that question

976
00:38:03,780 --> 00:38:01,300
right but I didn't actually believe that

977
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:03,790
we would get accurate answers on that

978
00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:05,530
question and the reason for that is

979
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:07,030
because one thing that I learned about

980
00:38:10,890 --> 00:38:08,650
spiritual teachers by the time we were

981
00:38:13,260 --> 00:38:10,900
doing serious data analysis was that

982
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:13,270
they really never taught or talked they

983
00:38:16,170 --> 00:38:14,770
didn't seem to they didn't seem to teach

984
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:16,180
or talk much about the thing that

985
00:38:21,690 --> 00:38:20,170
actually worked for them and so that's I

986
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:21,700
know a little bit of a strange puzzle

987
00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:24,160
because you would think that like if you

988
00:38:29,190 --> 00:38:27,910
know what am I most admire and most

989
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:29,200
significant transition was from

990
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:30,880
something called headless way which

991
00:38:35,609 --> 00:38:34,210
people can go look up so my own personal

992
00:38:37,470 --> 00:38:35,619
of consciousness came from something

993
00:38:39,780 --> 00:38:37,480
called headless way right a headless way

994
00:38:41,820 --> 00:38:39,790
sounds ridiculous you know it's

995
00:38:44,010 --> 00:38:41,830
basically like you pointing at your face

996
00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:44,020
you know asking yourself do I have a

997
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:45,550
head I mean it sounds like the most

998
00:38:49,740 --> 00:38:47,890
ludicrous method ever right and so when

999
00:38:51,390 --> 00:38:49,750
I was interviewing people you know I

1000
00:38:52,710 --> 00:38:51,400
would be like you know well tell me

1001
00:38:55,740 --> 00:38:52,720
about your background they all you know

1002
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:55,750
twenty-five years of you know this type

1003
00:38:59,160 --> 00:38:57,490
of Tibetan meditation and that's other

1004
00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:59,170
Buddhist meditation before that and

1005
00:39:02,310 --> 00:39:00,400
whatever and I'm like oh is that what

1006
00:39:03,390 --> 00:39:02,320
transitioned you and they were there and

1007
00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:03,400
you would see it like it's almost like a

1008
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:04,510
deer in the headlights right because

1009
00:39:08,430 --> 00:39:05,650
they didn't want to say it was headless

1010
00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:08,440
way you want to say that they spent 30

1011
00:39:13,020 --> 00:39:10,240
years sitting on a cushion

1012
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:13,030
you know torturing themselves and then

1013
00:39:16,589 --> 00:39:15,130
they pointed at their face one day and

1014
00:39:19,470 --> 00:39:16,599
that was the thing that transitioned

1015
00:39:22,530 --> 00:39:19,480
them to fundamental well-being right and

1016
00:39:24,359 --> 00:39:22,540
so and so I I just didn't I I never

1017
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:24,369
bothered to look at the answers on that

1018
00:39:26,670 --> 00:39:25,510
question because I just didn't think

1019
00:39:28,109 --> 00:39:26,680
that they would be accurate but they

1020
00:39:32,490 --> 00:39:28,119
actually did turn out to be accurate so

1021
00:39:34,859 --> 00:39:32,500
that was a bad mistake on my part and we

1022
00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:34,869
were able to sort those into a handful

1023
00:39:37,980 --> 00:39:36,310
of categories you could make it five or

1024
00:39:39,380 --> 00:39:37,990
six categories depending upon how you

1025
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:39,390
want to think about these methods and

1026
00:39:42,930 --> 00:39:41,530
then we BIST basically started

1027
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:42,940
systematically trying them out and it

1028
00:39:47,070 --> 00:39:44,530
turned out that they work for a large

1029
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:47,080
percentage of people so that became the

1030
00:39:52,490 --> 00:39:50,410
protocol and that was a game changer for

1031
00:39:55,230 --> 00:39:52,500
us because then you could invest money

1032
00:39:56,970 --> 00:39:55,240
in research you know up to that point I

1033
00:39:58,290 --> 00:39:56,980
mean you can't just say yeah I can't

1034
00:39:59,760 --> 00:39:58,300
just go into a Buddhist community and

1035
00:40:01,470 --> 00:39:59,770
pick out who's going to transition next

1036
00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:01,480
week so that you can you know measure

1037
00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:03,730
them before and afterward so it would

1038
00:40:07,950 --> 00:40:05,200
have been an expensive and almost an

1039
00:40:10,620 --> 00:40:07,960
impossible proposition but having that

1040
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:10,630
protocol made that possible

1041
00:40:16,620 --> 00:40:14,050
and so then we had a problem with the

1042
00:40:19,980 --> 00:40:16,630
protocol of people not doing it because

1043
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:19,990
it's long it's four months it's you know

1044
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:21,760
at least an hour and a half to two and a

1045
00:40:26,310 --> 00:40:24,010
half hours a day I mean like you've got

1046
00:40:27,870 --> 00:40:26,320
to really want this so when you say

1047
00:40:29,700 --> 00:40:27,880
protocol let's make sure we understand

1048
00:40:32,370 --> 00:40:29,710
there's something out there called the

1049
00:40:34,940 --> 00:40:32,380
finders course you run the finders

1050
00:40:38,370 --> 00:40:34,950
course an online course that is a

1051
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:38,380
combination of video and small group

1052
00:40:43,740 --> 00:40:41,170
sessions with different exercises you're

1053
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:43,750
doing protocols you're following both

1054
00:40:48,300 --> 00:40:45,570
inside the group and individually

1055
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:48,310
including meditation and

1056
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:50,050
looting positive psychology and

1057
00:40:54,630 --> 00:40:52,000
concluding all these things it's broken

1058
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:54,640
off it's a 12-week kind of program right

1059
00:41:00,120 --> 00:40:57,010
I think 17 weeks beginning to end now

1060
00:41:02,730 --> 00:41:00,130
okay 17 weeks there's aftercare at the

1061
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:02,740
end of it there's also a lot of data

1062
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:04,450
gathering so you're gonna have to fill

1063
00:41:09,020 --> 00:41:06,880
out a bunch of forms at the beginning

1064
00:41:11,580 --> 00:41:09,030
that is gonna kind of like you just said

1065
00:41:13,710 --> 00:41:11,590
pinpoint where you're at so you can't

1066
00:41:15,750 --> 00:41:13,720
fudge the numbers and say I was happy

1067
00:41:17,970 --> 00:41:15,760
any is that you know back here when you

1068
00:41:20,820 --> 00:41:17,980
first did it we ran all the numbers on

1069
00:41:23,070 --> 00:41:20,830
all these standardized well-being

1070
00:41:24,990 --> 00:41:23,080
measures and this is where you're at and

1071
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:25,000
this is where you're at now and that

1072
00:41:29,970 --> 00:41:26,890
might not matter to you but it matters

1073
00:41:32,430 --> 00:41:29,980
to us because again we're also looking

1074
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:32,440
at what does this mean for the planet

1075
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:34,000
what does this mean for a billion people

1076
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:36,370
and that's always been a goal of this

1077
00:41:42,690 --> 00:41:38,410
and and that is at the time this was

1078
00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:42,700
just a research project but now now it's

1079
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:45,910
really more of just a product that we're

1080
00:41:49,950 --> 00:41:47,770
deciding to put out there you know we

1081
00:41:53,010 --> 00:41:49,960
reached a point not long ago where I

1082
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:53,020
would say I mean it's been with in

1083
00:41:58,590 --> 00:41:56,050
recent months of doing this interview

1084
00:42:01,410 --> 00:41:58,600
where we just don't need any more data

1085
00:42:04,410 --> 00:42:01,420
like that you know I mean we've got five

1086
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:04,420
years of data you know like another

1087
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:07,330
cohort of data added to that is not

1088
00:42:10,860 --> 00:42:09,040
going to make it more significant it's

1089
00:42:13,980 --> 00:42:10,870
not going to increase the power or the

1090
00:42:15,570 --> 00:42:13,990
statistical power or effect sizes or

1091
00:42:18,090 --> 00:42:15,580
anything like that I mean we just we

1092
00:42:20,010 --> 00:42:18,100
basically just don't need anymore and so

1093
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:20,020
we've cut way back on the data

1094
00:42:24,060 --> 00:42:21,310
collection part of it and then the

1095
00:42:25,980 --> 00:42:24,070
question for us was do we kill it you

1096
00:42:28,650 --> 00:42:25,990
know or do we continue to make it

1097
00:42:29,790 --> 00:42:28,660
available frankly and we really thought

1098
00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:29,800
about it

1099
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:32,800
and we decided you know this is as far

1100
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:34,210
as I know the most effective thing

1101
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:35,920
that's out there so we probably

1102
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:37,290
shouldn't kill it

1103
00:42:43,860 --> 00:42:40,090
on the other hand where our research has

1104
00:42:45,270 --> 00:42:43,870
moved on to other areas and so so anyway

1105
00:42:46,950 --> 00:42:45,280
we're keeping it out there and we're in

1106
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:46,960
the process of transitioning it into

1107
00:42:51,180 --> 00:42:49,290
literally just being an online course

1108
00:42:52,980 --> 00:42:51,190
essentially which is what we which is

1109
00:42:54,450 --> 00:42:52,990
what it looked like from the very

1110
00:42:56,460 --> 00:42:54,460
beginning but we never thought of it

1111
00:42:58,140 --> 00:42:56,470
that way and the reason it looked like

1112
00:42:59,850 --> 00:42:58,150
that was because the way we got people

1113
00:43:01,829 --> 00:42:59,860
to ultimately go all the way through it

1114
00:43:03,569 --> 00:43:01,839
was to make it into what looked like

1115
00:43:05,069 --> 00:43:03,579
class instead of a psychology experiment

1116
00:43:07,979 --> 00:43:05,079
right I mean everybody that's ever

1117
00:43:09,450 --> 00:43:07,989
taught psych 101 knows that even when

1118
00:43:11,789 --> 00:43:09,460
you're even for extra credit

1119
00:43:14,339 --> 00:43:11,799
even for part of their grade you know

1120
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:14,349
you still can't get people to do like

1121
00:43:20,910 --> 00:43:17,200
middle of odds of experiments over the

1122
00:43:22,620 --> 00:43:20,920
course of you know a semester they still

1123
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:22,630
will drop out of your experiments and

1124
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:24,729
significant numbers it's annoying as

1125
00:43:27,839 --> 00:43:26,410
that is and of course most psychology

1126
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:27,849
research is when you read most

1127
00:43:32,009 --> 00:43:29,650
psychology papers they're basically done

1128
00:43:33,690 --> 00:43:32,019
on undergraduates that are in a psych

1129
00:43:35,279 --> 00:43:33,700
101 class or something like that I mean

1130
00:43:37,979 --> 00:43:35,289
they never say that they very rarely

1131
00:43:40,709 --> 00:43:37,989
admit to that but the vast majority of

1132
00:43:42,690 --> 00:43:40,719
human psychology results or psych 101

1133
00:43:44,609 --> 00:43:42,700
students or whatever who are basically

1134
00:43:46,499 --> 00:43:44,619
forced to do it for part of their grade

1135
00:43:48,180 --> 00:43:46,509
or to get extra credit depending upon

1136
00:43:49,319 --> 00:43:48,190
the institution's policy in the part of

1137
00:43:52,969 --> 00:43:49,329
the world and what the professor can get

1138
00:43:55,769 --> 00:43:52,979
away with for that from our perspective

1139
00:43:58,709 --> 00:43:55,779
what we decided to do we experiment a

1140
00:44:00,539 --> 00:43:58,719
lot of things and then we just decided

1141
00:44:02,130 --> 00:44:00,549
to make it we made it look like a class

1142
00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:02,140
basically we made it look like a public

1143
00:44:04,620 --> 00:44:03,460
class that we were always completely

1144
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:04,630
straightforward with people that it was

1145
00:44:08,420 --> 00:44:06,249
research they always had signed consent

1146
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:08,430
documents for the you know I Arby's and

1147
00:44:13,620 --> 00:44:11,200
stuff like that and obviously they had

1148
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:13,630
to tolerate endless hours of data

1149
00:44:18,029 --> 00:44:15,729
collection in order to take the class

1150
00:44:19,559 --> 00:44:18,039
and all of that so I don't think anybody

1151
00:44:21,209 --> 00:44:19,569
had any illusions about whether or not

1152
00:44:22,799 --> 00:44:21,219
it was not they were actually

1153
00:44:24,870 --> 00:44:22,809
participating it whether or not they

1154
00:44:26,969 --> 00:44:24,880
were you know being studied right the

1155
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:26,979
headline that we're gonna find in the

1156
00:44:32,219 --> 00:44:29,650
finders and anyone who comes across your

1157
00:44:35,009 --> 00:44:32,229
research the headline is quite dramatic

1158
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:35,019
and astounding but it is what the data

1159
00:44:41,130 --> 00:44:39,249
is this is phenomenally successful in

1160
00:44:44,279 --> 00:44:41,140
transitioning people to a new state of

1161
00:44:46,529 --> 00:44:44,289
well-being that isn't comparable to

1162
00:44:48,599 --> 00:44:46,539
anything we've seen in the past I mean

1163
00:44:50,749 --> 00:44:48,609
how far can we go with that how far do

1164
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:50,759
you feel comfortable going with that

1165
00:44:54,959 --> 00:44:53,410
yeah you know people can go to non sinn

1166
00:44:58,049 --> 00:44:54,969
vaka org and look on the publication's

1167
00:44:59,519 --> 00:44:58,059
page and they can see a talk that I gave

1168
00:45:01,140 --> 00:44:59,529
to a division of the American

1169
00:45:03,299 --> 00:45:01,150
Anthropological Association as one of

1170
00:45:05,069 --> 00:45:03,309
their keynotes that has like it's like

1171
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:05,079
an hour to hour talk or something and

1172
00:45:09,690 --> 00:45:07,119
just has it all in there and so that

1173
00:45:11,819 --> 00:45:09,700
really probably is the last tranche or

1174
00:45:13,289 --> 00:45:11,829
set of data that we will spend a huge

1175
00:45:15,539 --> 00:45:13,299
amount of time analyzing and thinking

1176
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:15,549
through and so that I would consider

1177
00:45:19,260 --> 00:45:16,210
that or up

1178
00:45:20,820 --> 00:45:19,270
data and so that was a 70% transition

1179
00:45:23,310 --> 00:45:20,830
rate essentially to these types of

1180
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:23,320
things and people can look and they can

1181
00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:25,810
see the Signet mean the you know when

1182
00:45:30,540 --> 00:45:27,910
psychologists look at those numbers they

1183
00:45:32,579 --> 00:45:30,550
look impossible I mean you shouldn't be

1184
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:32,589
able to have like a 50% drop in

1185
00:45:36,270 --> 00:45:34,450
neuroticism that's a you know your

1186
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:36,280
personality traits for just to pick one

1187
00:45:40,620 --> 00:45:38,710
example of one piece one tiny piece of

1188
00:45:43,260 --> 00:45:40,630
data your personality traits are

1189
00:45:44,250 --> 00:45:43,270
supposed to be relatively stable you

1190
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:44,260
know you shouldn't be able to take a

1191
00:45:48,990 --> 00:45:47,050
four month program and have a 50% or up

1192
00:45:51,230 --> 00:45:49,000
in eroticism or whatever right highlight

1193
00:45:54,450 --> 00:45:51,240
a couple other data points stress

1194
00:45:57,180 --> 00:45:54,460
happiness yeah stress happiness there's

1195
00:45:58,920 --> 00:45:57,190
a geez I mean I'm not thinking too much

1196
00:46:01,560 --> 00:45:58,930
about these numbers anymore but I think

1197
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:01,570
there's like a 40% drop on depression

1198
00:46:06,660 --> 00:46:03,810
measures on the Center for

1199
00:46:07,620 --> 00:46:06,670
epidemiological studies depression

1200
00:46:08,940 --> 00:46:07,630
measure which is one of the main

1201
00:46:10,770 --> 00:46:08,950
depression measures all the measures

1202
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:10,780
were like major measures you know huge

1203
00:46:15,810 --> 00:46:13,210
shifts and the mysticism type measures

1204
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:15,820
of course as one would expect I you know

1205
00:46:19,650 --> 00:46:17,890
for me personally one of the most I was

1206
00:46:21,690 --> 00:46:19,660
I would give these presentations every

1207
00:46:23,130 --> 00:46:21,700
year at the interested scientific

1208
00:46:24,420 --> 00:46:23,140
conferences and stuff right they would

1209
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:24,430
just invite us to present over here

1210
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:25,930
because who the heck else is doing this

1211
00:46:31,130 --> 00:46:28,570
right and I remember there was there

1212
00:46:33,930 --> 00:46:31,140
were always like a few people that I was

1213
00:46:36,420 --> 00:46:33,940
really waiting to see when I tipped them

1214
00:46:39,380 --> 00:46:36,430
over with data you know like the just

1215
00:46:42,329 --> 00:46:39,390
the die-hard skeptics in the room right

1216
00:46:44,460 --> 00:46:42,339
the people who really just did not want

1217
00:46:46,620 --> 00:46:44,470
to believe our findings in many cases

1218
00:46:47,430 --> 00:46:46,630
because they were Buddhist themselves

1219
00:46:50,070 --> 00:46:47,440
even though they were also

1220
00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:50,080
neuroscientists or whatever else and and

1221
00:46:54,599 --> 00:46:51,910
so they just had they had fundamental

1222
00:46:57,420 --> 00:46:54,609
philosophical ideological beliefs that

1223
00:46:59,820 --> 00:46:57,430
made them diametrically opposed to our

1224
00:47:01,710 --> 00:46:59,830
data and I remember a couple years ago I

1225
00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:01,720
think I was presenting there was one guy

1226
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:04,240
that was left right and I love him to

1227
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:05,770
death I won't say who it is by 11 to

1228
00:47:09,900 --> 00:47:07,810
death he's a friend of mine I have

1229
00:47:11,550 --> 00:47:09,910
enormous respect for his work he's he's

1230
00:47:14,790 --> 00:47:11,560
one of I think the most important people

1231
00:47:18,630 --> 00:47:14,800
in the neuroscience of this space but

1232
00:47:19,980 --> 00:47:18,640
you know as close as as much as we like

1233
00:47:22,710 --> 00:47:19,990
each other and as much as respect each

1234
00:47:24,089 --> 00:47:22,720
other you know he was a hardened critic

1235
00:47:25,470 --> 00:47:24,099
of our work for a very long time

1236
00:47:27,660 --> 00:47:25,480
and I remember I was in this one

1237
00:47:29,670 --> 00:47:27,670
presentation and I was just sort of we

1238
00:47:31,260 --> 00:47:29,680
finally had enough pieces of

1239
00:47:33,930 --> 00:47:31,270
between well-being the between the

1240
00:47:36,150 --> 00:47:33,940
well-being and depression stuff and

1241
00:47:38,490 --> 00:47:36,160
between the personality measures stuff

1242
00:47:40,859 --> 00:47:38,500
like the neuroticism drop and I could

1243
00:47:43,890 --> 00:47:40,869
tell that like the one piece of evidence

1244
00:47:47,130 --> 00:47:43,900
that probably tipped it for him was the

1245
00:47:50,130 --> 00:47:47,140
meaning measures so we collected data on

1246
00:47:52,710 --> 00:47:50,140
personal meaning and there is this one

1247
00:47:54,299 --> 00:47:52,720
measure that that looks at meaning in

1248
00:47:55,859 --> 00:47:54,309
two different ways these people are very

1249
00:47:57,180 --> 00:47:55,869
accurately I mean it's of impressive

1250
00:47:59,549 --> 00:47:57,190
work right they've gotten to this with a

1251
00:48:01,559 --> 00:47:59,559
measure and so they look at meaning as

1252
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:01,569
that what they call presence and search

1253
00:48:07,079 --> 00:48:05,170
and search really is seeking and it's

1254
00:48:08,579 --> 00:48:07,089
like a negative form of meaning making

1255
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:08,589
but they've found a way to measure it

1256
00:48:13,319 --> 00:48:11,440
and presence is essentially like just

1257
00:48:15,809 --> 00:48:13,329
being at peace with things and so it's

1258
00:48:17,549 --> 00:48:15,819
like the form of meaning you want right

1259
00:48:20,819 --> 00:48:17,559
it's like the positive form of meaning

1260
00:48:24,510 --> 00:48:20,829
that's so elusive for Humanity and we

1261
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:24,520
had just really clear you know highly

1262
00:48:29,010 --> 00:48:27,130
statistically significant results that

1263
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:29,020
basically showed that in this population

1264
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:30,550
of people reporting fundamental

1265
00:48:35,579 --> 00:48:33,250
well-being that you have this the search

1266
00:48:37,980 --> 00:48:35,589
the seeking portion of meaning if you

1267
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:37,990
will you know really significantly

1268
00:48:42,180 --> 00:48:40,450
dropping and the presence form of

1269
00:48:43,559 --> 00:48:42,190
meaning really significantly increasing

1270
00:48:45,410 --> 00:48:43,569
not and I don't think I've ever

1271
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:45,420
presented that particular data before

1272
00:48:49,589 --> 00:48:47,770
but I could tell it was that piece and

1273
00:48:51,690 --> 00:48:49,599
also a piece of data on disassociation

1274
00:48:54,089 --> 00:48:51,700
and depersonalization it was just I like

1275
00:48:55,829 --> 00:48:54,099
I could just see his face change you

1276
00:48:57,510 --> 00:48:55,839
know and after that it was there wasn't

1277
00:48:59,520 --> 00:48:57,520
any more criticism it was like you know

1278
00:49:01,829 --> 00:48:59,530
that okay you've you've got the puzzle

1279
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:01,839
like I'm convinced like you've got the

1280
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:03,490
puzzle those are all of the puzzle

1281
00:49:08,789 --> 00:49:05,710
pieces that I would need to see that's

1282
00:49:10,589 --> 00:49:08,799
really what we've done but so anyway now

1283
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:10,599
we're gonna keep we're keeping the

1284
00:49:13,589 --> 00:49:11,890
course out there the course it's

1285
00:49:15,690 --> 00:49:13,599
renowned now it is a course actually

1286
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:15,700
it's not we're still collecting data

1287
00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:17,650
because we figure why not but we're

1288
00:49:20,940 --> 00:49:19,510
collecting a lot less of it than we've

1289
00:49:22,349 --> 00:49:20,950
ever collected in the past and we think

1290
00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:22,359
you know maybe some PhD student will

1291
00:49:26,250 --> 00:49:23,680
come along someday want to dig into a

1292
00:49:27,950 --> 00:49:26,260
bunch of it or whatever else there's no

1293
00:49:30,299 --> 00:49:27,960
reason to not be collecting the data

1294
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:30,309
because at the same time people can also

1295
00:49:35,460 --> 00:49:33,490
sort of see their own change we use you

1296
00:49:37,079 --> 00:49:35,470
pens online psychology measures thing

1297
00:49:38,789 --> 00:49:37,089
for a chunk of it and so they can see

1298
00:49:40,380 --> 00:49:38,799
their own before and after results on

1299
00:49:42,510 --> 00:49:40,390
all of these leading measures that's

1300
00:49:43,050 --> 00:49:42,520
basically now actually a class and where

1301
00:49:44,850 --> 00:49:43,060
are Reese

1302
00:49:47,310 --> 00:49:44,860
has moved on to is very different than

1303
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:47,320
that let's talk about that because I

1304
00:49:50,730 --> 00:49:49,330
spent a good deal of time rehashing

1305
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:50,740
stuff that we already talked about but I

1306
00:49:54,180 --> 00:49:52,210
think it's it's important because if you

1307
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:54,190
jump into the middle of this and just

1308
00:49:59,160 --> 00:49:56,770
talk about what's going forward it's

1309
00:50:00,690 --> 00:49:59,170
such an amazing story it's so unique

1310
00:50:03,630 --> 00:50:00,700
what you've done we just can't stress

1311
00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:03,640
that enough whether people like it or

1312
00:50:07,370 --> 00:50:04,510
don't like it

1313
00:50:09,660 --> 00:50:07,380
whether you're that grumpy Buddhist

1314
00:50:12,150 --> 00:50:09,670
neuroscience type who's sitting there

1315
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:12,160
going this isn't it or whether you're a

1316
00:50:16,710 --> 00:50:14,800
spiritual seeker who's so attached to

1317
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:16,720
your own tradition that you feel like

1318
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:18,910
this guy is going to take the secret

1319
00:50:22,650 --> 00:50:20,650
sauce out of what you already know

1320
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:22,660
there's all sorts of reasons to be a

1321
00:50:26,820 --> 00:50:24,970
hater on this stuff and I'm sure you've

1322
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:26,830
encountered all of them but here's what

1323
00:50:29,610 --> 00:50:28,480
happened I sent you this email and said

1324
00:50:32,430 --> 00:50:29,620
hey here's some things we would like to

1325
00:50:34,380 --> 00:50:32,440
talk about you just boomed like laser

1326
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:34,390
zeroed in said hey I think we've talked

1327
00:50:37,980 --> 00:50:36,130
about a lot of that stuff already here's

1328
00:50:41,310 --> 00:50:37,990
some of the stuff that I think is going

1329
00:50:43,740 --> 00:50:41,320
on right now that would be interesting

1330
00:50:48,990 --> 00:50:43,750
to your listeners so the data that you

1331
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:49,000
have allows you to scrutinize spiritual

1332
00:50:55,860 --> 00:50:51,610
claims in a way that wasn't possible

1333
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:55,870
before it's a knife and in your hand you

1334
00:51:01,650 --> 00:50:59,200
are not unwilling to wield that knife

1335
00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:01,660
sometimes at some folks who you think

1336
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:03,910
deserve it so here's what you say we

1337
00:51:09,150 --> 00:51:06,850
basically feel like those systems that

1338
00:51:11,670 --> 00:51:09,160
is religious systems like Buddhism and

1339
00:51:15,630 --> 00:51:11,680
others have failed for a millennia

1340
00:51:19,170 --> 00:51:15,640
failed humanity essentially except as

1341
00:51:22,350 --> 00:51:19,180
some sort of minimal cultural carrier

1342
00:51:24,780 --> 00:51:22,360
it's not difficult to transition people

1343
00:51:26,970 --> 00:51:24,790
this is what you're saying is hey I've

1344
00:51:28,830 --> 00:51:26,980
been doing this guys we've run it we've

1345
00:51:30,990 --> 00:51:28,840
collected the data we know how to do it

1346
00:51:32,610 --> 00:51:31,000
it's not difficult to transition people

1347
00:51:35,130 --> 00:51:32,620
which everyone thinks is impossible so

1348
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:35,140
the fact that these systems aren't

1349
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:38,770
routinely doing it at scale is an

1350
00:51:44,190 --> 00:51:41,890
indication that they're best left in the

1351
00:51:45,930 --> 00:51:44,200
past I mean that's gonna piss a lot of

1352
00:51:48,450 --> 00:51:45,940
people off right there I mean I don't

1353
00:51:51,660 --> 00:51:48,460
care in that in the audience seeing your

1354
00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:51,670
data or not yeah process that yeah you

1355
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:53,350
know we have a scientific framework not

1356
00:51:55,540 --> 00:51:54,730
a religious framework right I'm not a

1357
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:55,550
religious sky

1358
00:51:58,960 --> 00:51:57,530
though obviously we've had a lot of

1359
00:52:00,310 --> 00:51:58,970
religious scholars on the project and

1360
00:52:02,590 --> 00:52:00,320
associated with the project and whatnot

1361
00:52:04,210 --> 00:52:02,600
because they're interested in meeting

1362
00:52:06,610 --> 00:52:04,220
people who are relate to the things that

1363
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:06,620
you know they studied or whatever but to

1364
00:52:11,740 --> 00:52:08,930
us it's it's it really is sort of

1365
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:11,750
becoming that clear you know we have had

1366
00:52:18,250 --> 00:52:14,650
such a massive amount of hostility

1367
00:52:20,290 --> 00:52:18,260
directed at us in recent years as we've

1368
00:52:21,550 --> 00:52:20,300
conducted these experiments and as we've

1369
00:52:24,010 --> 00:52:21,560
been sort of more routinely

1370
00:52:26,650 --> 00:52:24,020
transitioning people from these various

1371
00:52:27,780 --> 00:52:26,660
systems and we've done I feel like a lot

1372
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:27,790
of outreach

1373
00:52:32,500 --> 00:52:30,290
you know we've allowed a lot of people

1374
00:52:35,020 --> 00:52:32,510
from those systems to use our programs

1375
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:35,030
for free or even subsidizing them in

1376
00:52:38,710 --> 00:52:37,370
other ways or even adapting things in

1377
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:38,720
other ways and allowing them to run them

1378
00:52:41,250 --> 00:52:39,770
in person because they're more

1379
00:52:43,470 --> 00:52:41,260
comfortable running things in person

1380
00:52:46,450 --> 00:52:43,480
then not even making them use our online

1381
00:52:48,460 --> 00:52:46,460
format and protocol and you know I feel

1382
00:52:50,650 --> 00:52:48,470
like we've done as much as we can do to

1383
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:50,660
really sort of reach out and yet there's

1384
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:53,450
still just such hostility that comes

1385
00:52:58,960 --> 00:52:56,810
from those folks and you know I I mean

1386
00:53:00,580 --> 00:52:58,970
how happy can you really be if you're

1387
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:00,590
that hostile if you're really

1388
00:53:05,230 --> 00:53:03,170
experiencing this stuff it's hard to be

1389
00:53:06,550 --> 00:53:05,240
that hostile you know you're more I

1390
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:06,560
would like to think you're a little more

1391
00:53:09,610 --> 00:53:07,970
like us where you're asking yourself

1392
00:53:11,050 --> 00:53:09,620
what can I do to help this person and

1393
00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:11,060
that's really significant I mean I think

1394
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:13,520
the outreach part is really significant

1395
00:53:20,050 --> 00:53:16,490
for people to hear people who are

1396
00:53:21,790 --> 00:53:20,060
critics it's like you know oh this guy's

1397
00:53:23,650 --> 00:53:21,800
just doing it for the money or as

1398
00:53:24,790 --> 00:53:23,660
heavy-handed or is this that whatever

1399
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:24,800
you want to say about the way he's

1400
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:26,810
conducted his research and I think at

1401
00:53:31,870 --> 00:53:29,090
this point it's just beyond question

1402
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:31,880
like he just said it's research look at

1403
00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:33,770
the outrage look at when people come to

1404
00:53:37,660 --> 00:53:35,510
him and say hey I really think this

1405
00:53:39,550 --> 00:53:37,670
could benefit this group if we did it in

1406
00:53:41,500 --> 00:53:39,560
this way and I think the general vibe

1407
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:41,510
that I get back and I did from the

1408
00:53:44,890 --> 00:53:43,370
beginning when I heard he was like okay

1409
00:53:47,290 --> 00:53:44,900
great well you know here's how you might

1410
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:47,300
go about doing that good luck to you you

1411
00:53:50,740 --> 00:53:49,280
know I mean how can you criticize that

1412
00:53:53,980 --> 00:53:50,750
but here's the other thing you said in

1413
00:53:57,940 --> 00:53:53,990
the email to be spiritual salesmanship

1414
00:54:01,570 --> 00:53:57,950
around fundamental well being has just

1415
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:01,580
been completely bogus yeah I think so I

1416
00:54:04,540 --> 00:54:03,170
think we got to process that a lot I

1417
00:54:08,780 --> 00:54:04,550
think we got to really break that apart

1418
00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:08,790
because we have to understand what that

1419
00:54:13,370 --> 00:54:11,280
resistance what that jealousy is about

1420
00:54:16,130 --> 00:54:13,380
it's not the whole story the big story

1421
00:54:19,310 --> 00:54:16,140
is what you're talking about 70% of

1422
00:54:22,070 --> 00:54:19,320
people can feel better about themselves

1423
00:54:25,070 --> 00:54:22,080
and beef along their path whatever that

1424
00:54:27,530 --> 00:54:25,080
path takes them they can help but there

1425
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:27,540
is a built-in resistance to the system

1426
00:54:31,810 --> 00:54:29,610
that I like that you bring out your

1427
00:54:35,210 --> 00:54:31,820
sword and you want to slash away at

1428
00:54:36,620 --> 00:54:35,220
spiritual salesmanship around this idea

1429
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:36,630
of fundamental well being has been

1430
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:38,610
completely bogus in what ways has it

1431
00:54:42,530 --> 00:54:41,040
been bogus in this area you know when I

1432
00:54:43,070 --> 00:54:42,540
first started trying to research this

1433
00:54:46,610 --> 00:54:43,080
area

1434
00:54:50,210 --> 00:54:46,620
it was so hard and the reason it was so

1435
00:54:52,610 --> 00:54:50,220
hard was because the general view of it

1436
00:54:55,180 --> 00:54:52,620
within the psychology establishment was

1437
00:54:58,280 --> 00:54:55,190
that the claims are so anti materialist

1438
00:55:00,470 --> 00:54:58,290
right and so it's all just get

1439
00:55:02,510 --> 00:55:00,480
enlightened and then basically you're

1440
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:02,520
the path ahead of you is just paved with

1441
00:55:08,060 --> 00:55:05,490
gold it's all just perfect synchronistic

1442
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:08,070
unfoldment I mean you know you if you're

1443
00:55:11,210 --> 00:55:09,690
hungry and you want an orange you just

1444
00:55:12,830 --> 00:55:11,220
hold out your hand and visualize an

1445
00:55:14,660 --> 00:55:12,840
orange and the orange shows up in your

1446
00:55:16,850 --> 00:55:14,670
hand you know but but if you're really

1447
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:16,860
advanced you just infuse the orange

1448
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:18,210
nests into your system you don't even

1449
00:55:23,060 --> 00:55:20,490
bother with that or these are actual

1450
00:55:24,980 --> 00:55:23,070
things you know that we heard and so I

1451
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:24,990
think that traditionally one thing

1452
00:55:28,820 --> 00:55:26,490
that's been interesting about the people

1453
00:55:30,140 --> 00:55:28,830
who have pursued fundamental well-being

1454
00:55:32,540 --> 00:55:30,150
which is a tiny percent of the

1455
00:55:34,130 --> 00:55:32,550
population a tiny tiny tiny percent of

1456
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:34,140
the population probably in the hundreds

1457
00:55:38,420 --> 00:55:36,690
of thousands of English speakers

1458
00:55:40,820 --> 00:55:38,430
near-native English Western English

1459
00:55:42,770 --> 00:55:40,830
speakers so that's a very small group of

1460
00:55:45,290 --> 00:55:42,780
people right who have really really

1461
00:55:47,060 --> 00:55:45,300
pursued it I'm not talking about people

1462
00:55:49,810 --> 00:55:47,070
who don't want their ego to be happier

1463
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:49,820
or whatever but who have really pursued

1464
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:53,130
this fundamental well-being shift it's a

1465
00:55:57,140 --> 00:55:54,930
relatively small number of people and it

1466
00:56:00,350 --> 00:55:57,150
was a and by and large it was a mostly

1467
00:56:02,930 --> 00:56:00,360
unhappy group of people and so that's

1468
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:02,940
coloured a lot of things relating to

1469
00:56:06,050 --> 00:56:05,370
this in the West and from a public

1470
00:56:07,820 --> 00:56:06,060
standpoint

1471
00:56:09,530 --> 00:56:07,830
well there's also let me play it play

1472
00:56:11,660 --> 00:56:09,540
this out and see what you think you go

1473
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:11,670
back to your story right which is

1474
00:56:17,210 --> 00:56:14,970
everybody's story I'm unhappy I'm not as

1475
00:56:20,330 --> 00:56:17,220
happy as I think I should be I'm not as

1476
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:20,340
happy as those TV ads tell me I can be I

1477
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:22,170
want to be happier

1478
00:56:26,660 --> 00:56:24,240
so you have somewhat of a spiritual bent

1479
00:56:29,390 --> 00:56:26,670
and maybe you have like a anti religious

1480
00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:29,400
bent like a lot of us do we say somebody

1481
00:56:34,220 --> 00:56:32,160
says meditation you go oh ok meditation

1482
00:56:36,319 --> 00:56:34,230
what should I do and you go online you

1483
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:36,329
meditation I know the Zen people

1484
00:56:40,069 --> 00:56:38,490
meditate so you find the local Zen

1485
00:56:41,930 --> 00:56:40,079
people that will let you come in and sit

1486
00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:41,940
down and you start meditating or you

1487
00:56:47,380 --> 00:56:45,510
start taking a yoga class and there's

1488
00:56:50,089 --> 00:56:47,390
all this stuff that they're saying

1489
00:56:52,279 --> 00:56:50,099
around all these things so you wind up

1490
00:56:54,650 --> 00:56:52,289
following it in some cases for years and

1491
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:54,660
years and you wind up scratching your

1492
00:56:58,940 --> 00:56:56,400
head and go you know what I really

1493
00:57:00,620 --> 00:56:58,950
wanted was I wanted to feel better I

1494
00:57:03,140 --> 00:57:00,630
wanted to feel more a sense of

1495
00:57:06,500 --> 00:57:03,150
well-being am I really getting there

1496
00:57:09,710 --> 00:57:06,510
with that I think that's what I read out

1497
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:09,720
of this aspect of spiritual salesmanship

1498
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:12,450
that I think you're directly debunking

1499
00:57:17,210 --> 00:57:14,970
which is to say if this is what you say

1500
00:57:20,180 --> 00:57:17,220
you want we can measure it in these ways

1501
00:57:22,460 --> 00:57:20,190
then why wouldn't we want to as directly

1502
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:22,470
as possible try and achieve that what's

1503
00:57:27,589 --> 00:57:24,690
wrong with that I agree yeah absolutely

1504
00:57:29,420 --> 00:57:27,599
and I would say you know one of the

1505
00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:29,430
problems with it where the spiritual

1506
00:57:33,289 --> 00:57:31,200
salesmanship I think comes in is in the

1507
00:57:35,359 --> 00:57:33,299
sales process I talk about what

1508
00:57:37,009 --> 00:57:35,369
fundamental well-being is it's pretty

1509
00:57:41,059 --> 00:57:37,019
much the opposite of the normal sense of

1510
00:57:43,849 --> 00:57:41,069
self right and so if you're in your

1511
00:57:46,970 --> 00:57:43,859
normal sense of self and I'm trying to

1512
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:46,980
convince you that fundamental well-being

1513
00:57:52,670 --> 00:57:49,920
is where it's at it sounds thoroughly

1514
00:57:55,249 --> 00:57:52,680
undesirable to your normal sense of self

1515
00:57:57,710 --> 00:57:55,259
right that's so profound but let's break

1516
00:57:59,029 --> 00:57:57,720
that down a little bit yeah let's really

1517
00:58:00,230 --> 00:57:59,039
get into this and let's really talk

1518
00:58:02,839 --> 00:58:00,240
about all of this because I think this

1519
00:58:05,059 --> 00:58:02,849
is it's important and for a long time

1520
00:58:07,999 --> 00:58:05,069
you know we've we've avoided these types

1521
00:58:10,549 --> 00:58:08,009
of conversations I think out of I don't

1522
00:58:12,019 --> 00:58:10,559
know politeness but it didn't get us

1523
00:58:13,609 --> 00:58:12,029
anywhere it just kept getting us

1524
00:58:14,749 --> 00:58:13,619
attacked more and more and more and more

1525
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:14,759
and more and more and more and now I

1526
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:16,410
think we're sort of done with avoiding

1527
00:58:20,870 --> 00:58:18,210
these types of conversations and you

1528
00:58:23,029 --> 00:58:20,880
know whatever else because it just to us

1529
00:58:25,009 --> 00:58:23,039
it just seems so clear having cut a

1530
00:58:27,230 --> 00:58:25,019
swath across so many different

1531
00:58:28,940 --> 00:58:27,240
communities right the patterns are just

1532
00:58:30,980 --> 00:58:28,950
they're all over the place and they're

1533
00:58:32,150 --> 00:58:30,990
not limited to one particular group or

1534
00:58:34,220 --> 00:58:32,160
another particular group or whatever

1535
00:58:35,930 --> 00:58:34,230
else right so let me go back and let me

1536
00:58:37,490 --> 00:58:35,940
let me let me talk a little bit

1537
00:58:39,230 --> 00:58:37,500
I could just real quick about what you

1538
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:39,240
said a minute ago right we know it's not

1539
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:41,730
that we don't see a value in religion

1540
00:58:45,950 --> 00:58:43,290
and spiritual systems we absolutely do

1541
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:45,960
right we use a lot of their methods that

1542
00:58:49,580 --> 00:58:47,520
they've come up with for hundreds of

1543
00:58:52,790 --> 00:58:49,590
years they've been a very important

1544
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:52,800
cultural carrier across millennia across

1545
00:58:57,590 --> 00:58:55,410
the rise and fall of Empires that tend

1546
00:58:59,390 --> 00:58:57,600
to wipe out knowledge and histories and

1547
00:59:01,820 --> 00:58:59,400
whatever else they have they have been

1548
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:01,830
like a cultural carrier thread through

1549
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:04,290
that a culture carrier of what obviously

1550
00:59:08,660 --> 00:59:05,850
personal carrier of the knowledge that

1551
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:08,670
this that fundamental well-being exists

1552
00:59:12,950 --> 00:59:10,770
and that you can reach it and of having

1553
00:59:14,540 --> 00:59:12,960
clues for how to reach it and I think

1554
00:59:16,910 --> 00:59:14,550
that's very valuable and if you think

1555
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:16,920
back to if you you know if you think

1556
00:59:20,180 --> 00:59:18,570
back to who knows how many hundreds of

1557
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:20,190
years ago like those little tibetan

1558
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:23,280
Tinka symbol things were created right

1559
00:59:27,950 --> 00:59:25,920
but that's an amazing technology you

1560
00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:27,960
know this if you measure those things

1561
00:59:31,790 --> 00:59:29,760
there most of them the real ones are

1562
00:59:33,590 --> 00:59:31,800
like a 10 Hertz binaural beat designed

1563
00:59:36,530 --> 00:59:33,600
to be held up to each side of your head

1564
00:59:39,500 --> 00:59:36,540
I mean like somebody hundreds of years

1565
00:59:41,090 --> 00:59:39,510
ago created a genius piece of

1566
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:41,100
consciousness altering technology

1567
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:43,410
they're right a lot of these things that

1568
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:45,690
they've come up with were brilliant and

1569
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:48,570
cutting-edge in their day the problem

1570
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:50,250
for us is that it's you know what we

1571
00:59:53,980 --> 00:59:51,930
look at it critically is that at some

1572
00:59:56,450 --> 00:59:53,990
point that just seems to have stopped

1573
00:59:58,190 --> 00:59:56,460
right I mean for the last hundred and

1574
01:00:00,790 --> 00:59:58,200
fifty years there's been a siam ager

1575
01:00:03,410 --> 01:00:00,800
scientific revolution going on right

1576
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:03,420
where have been where are the modern

1577
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:05,850
Tinkerbell's coming out of these

1578
01:00:11,630 --> 01:00:09,330
traditions that was just bleeding edge

1579
01:00:13,310 --> 01:00:11,640
science and engineering at some point

1580
01:00:14,300 --> 01:00:13,320
however many hundreds of thousands I

1581
01:00:16,250 --> 01:00:14,310
don't know the history on those

1582
01:00:19,220 --> 01:00:16,260
sainte-chapelle things right are those

1583
01:00:21,740 --> 01:00:19,230
simple things they were at one point on

1584
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:21,750
the absolute bleeding edge of science

1585
01:00:25,580 --> 01:00:23,370
and technology of human consciousness

1586
01:00:28,340 --> 01:00:25,590
but at but it's I think it's undeniable

1587
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:28,350
that at some point that stopped right

1588
01:00:32,780 --> 01:00:30,690
and I'm living evidence of that I should

1589
01:00:35,450 --> 01:00:32,790
never have had to spend the last twelve

1590
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:35,460
years of my life doing this right I mean

1591
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:37,890
for hundreds of years those traditions

1592
01:00:43,340 --> 01:00:40,890
could have been keeping up with science

1593
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:43,350
as it was evolving I mean the EEG was

1594
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:45,330
invented over a hundred years ago at

1595
01:00:49,029 --> 01:00:48,570
this point right I mean anyone from any

1596
01:00:50,439 --> 01:00:49,039
of these

1597
01:00:52,089 --> 01:00:50,449
traditions could have been like hey

1598
01:00:54,159 --> 01:00:52,099
let's see what's coming out of our

1599
01:00:56,859 --> 01:00:54,169
meditation teachers head and see if we

1600
01:01:00,309 --> 01:00:56,869
can start advancing this right but where

1601
01:01:01,929 --> 01:01:00,319
was that per se right so it's not that

1602
01:01:03,909 --> 01:01:01,939
it's not that throughout all of human

1603
01:01:05,919 --> 01:01:03,919
history there was no value I think there

1604
01:01:08,380 --> 01:01:05,929
was tremendous value but it's almost

1605
01:01:11,859 --> 01:01:08,390
like that that value proposition stopped

1606
01:01:14,049 --> 01:01:11,869
advancing at a certain point and human

1607
01:01:15,759 --> 01:01:14,059
culture kept moving on and now there's

1608
01:01:17,469 --> 01:01:15,769
this tremendous out of phase miss you

1609
01:01:20,519 --> 01:01:17,479
know one of the things that we pick up

1610
01:01:24,630 --> 01:01:20,529
on in in our participant research

1611
01:01:27,009 --> 01:01:24,640
especially people who come in to the

1612
01:01:30,849 --> 01:01:27,019
finders course when it was an experiment

1613
01:01:32,679 --> 01:01:30,859
is it's very clear that you know they've

1614
01:01:35,319 --> 01:01:32,689
been involved in Buddhism not because

1615
01:01:36,759 --> 01:01:35,329
they love the the lore of Buddhism but

1616
01:01:38,229 --> 01:01:36,769
because they think that that's where

1617
01:01:39,699 --> 01:01:38,239
some method might exist that might

1618
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:39,709
increase their well-being right it's

1619
01:01:44,620 --> 01:01:41,359
almost like most of them are trying to

1620
01:01:46,900 --> 01:01:44,630
avoid the dogma of Buddhism but get the

1621
01:01:49,329 --> 01:01:46,910
method that they think might actually

1622
01:01:50,799 --> 01:01:49,339
you know assist them and some way I

1623
01:01:54,309 --> 01:01:50,809
remember I was sitting I was researching

1624
01:01:56,799 --> 01:01:54,319
this famous Tibetan guy one time and I

1625
01:01:59,399 --> 01:01:56,809
was sitting in a small group of kind of

1626
01:02:01,419 --> 01:01:59,409
like elite people that he was teaching

1627
01:02:03,099 --> 01:02:01,429
waiting for him to get done so that I

1628
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:03,109
could you know talk to him afterward I

1629
01:02:06,429 --> 01:02:04,130
had an appointment scheduled with him

1630
01:02:07,870 --> 01:02:06,439
afterward and I he's like come early I'm

1631
01:02:09,579 --> 01:02:07,880
gonna give this teaching and so I came

1632
01:02:11,499 --> 01:02:09,589
early to give this teaching he's talking

1633
01:02:13,959 --> 01:02:11,509
about the Buddha coming out of the side

1634
01:02:15,489 --> 01:02:13,969
of his mother being born out of the side

1635
01:02:18,429 --> 01:02:15,499
of his mother and all of this various

1636
01:02:21,489 --> 01:02:18,439
dogma to this roomful of wealthy

1637
01:02:24,419 --> 01:02:21,499
Westerners frankly who were like can we

1638
01:02:27,069 --> 01:02:24,429
please get to the meditation park right

1639
01:02:28,899 --> 01:02:27,079
like the last thing they wanted to hear

1640
01:02:31,479 --> 01:02:28,909
was the Buddha coming out of the side of

1641
01:02:33,009 --> 01:02:31,489
his mother or whatever else right and

1642
01:02:36,279 --> 01:02:33,019
but they're having to sort of suffer

1643
01:02:37,719 --> 01:02:36,289
through that in some sense to get to the

1644
01:02:38,859 --> 01:02:37,729
thing that they actually showed up for

1645
01:02:40,299 --> 01:02:38,869
which was meditation that they were

1646
01:02:42,219 --> 01:02:40,309
hoping would relieve some of their

1647
01:02:43,719 --> 01:02:42,229
psychological suffering and so so it's

1648
01:02:46,390 --> 01:02:43,729
not that I think that there's that

1649
01:02:48,309 --> 01:02:46,400
there's a wholesale lack of a value

1650
01:02:51,849 --> 01:02:48,319
proposition there but you know let's

1651
01:02:53,439 --> 01:02:51,859
face it we're not all in P n SE for some

1652
01:02:56,140 --> 01:02:53,449
reason we're not all in fundamental

1653
01:02:57,849 --> 01:02:56,150
well-being for some reason and and these

1654
01:03:00,399 --> 01:02:57,859
are the systems that have taken a crack

1655
01:03:02,890 --> 01:03:00,409
at it for hundreds and thousands of

1656
01:03:05,230 --> 01:03:02,900
years at this point and so I don't

1657
01:03:08,140 --> 01:03:05,240
that you can say wow look at the success

1658
01:03:11,289 --> 01:03:08,150
that that has been and you certainly

1659
01:03:13,059 --> 01:03:11,299
can't say wow look at how they've kept

1660
01:03:16,450 --> 01:03:13,069
up with their technologies and how they

1661
01:03:18,279 --> 01:03:16,460
have evolved into modern eras though no

1662
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:18,289
one sitting in that room of wealthy

1663
01:03:23,109 --> 01:03:21,170
people wanted to look like one of their

1664
01:03:25,750 --> 01:03:23,119
life to be like that Tibetan teacher's

1665
01:03:27,910 --> 01:03:25,760
life right they wanted this integrated

1666
01:03:31,569 --> 01:03:27,920
into their own life they wanted a modern

1667
01:03:34,180 --> 01:03:31,579
secular Western version of this that

1668
01:03:38,289 --> 01:03:34,190
solved their fundamental core well-being

1669
01:03:42,309 --> 01:03:38,299
problems and then you know allowed them

1670
01:03:45,309 --> 01:03:42,319
to live a modern Western lifestyle not

1671
01:03:48,430 --> 01:03:45,319
having to renounce meat or sex or money

1672
01:03:50,500 --> 01:03:48,440
or you know dress in some certain way or

1673
01:03:53,289 --> 01:03:50,510
you know any of those other things like

1674
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:53,299
they want to go to work tomorrow or do

1675
01:03:56,380 --> 01:03:54,890
their investing tomorrow or whatever it

1676
01:03:57,910 --> 01:03:56,390
is that particular group did and so

1677
01:03:59,769 --> 01:03:57,920
that's where that's that's what I was

1678
01:04:01,210 --> 01:03:59,779
trying to convey basically sort of you

1679
01:04:02,890 --> 01:04:01,220
know that's where we come out there's we

1680
01:04:04,569 --> 01:04:02,900
think there's tremendous value and a lot

1681
01:04:05,740 --> 01:04:04,579
of these things and to this degree that

1682
01:04:06,549 --> 01:04:05,750
they help but they help I think that's

1683
01:04:08,650 --> 01:04:06,559
fantastic

1684
01:04:12,190 --> 01:04:08,660
but we really feel like there's this

1685
01:04:14,349 --> 01:04:12,200
whole other approach that is more suited

1686
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:14,359
to modernity and then I would the other

1687
01:04:17,260 --> 01:04:15,650
thing that I would add to that would be

1688
01:04:19,839 --> 01:04:17,270
on the flip side of the spiritual

1689
01:04:22,779 --> 01:04:19,849
salesmanship thing you know it is

1690
01:04:24,910 --> 01:04:22,789
incredibly tempting to give in to

1691
01:04:28,450 --> 01:04:24,920
spiritual salesmanship

1692
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:28,460
it is incredibly tempting to say you

1693
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:31,130
know what your sense your your

1694
01:04:35,710 --> 01:04:34,130
synchronicity will increase to the point

1695
01:04:37,779 --> 01:04:35,720
where life will be effortless for you

1696
01:04:39,519 --> 01:04:37,789
Alex this is the thing that you've been

1697
01:04:41,109 --> 01:04:39,529
looking life is such a struggle for you

1698
01:04:43,839 --> 01:04:41,119
I know it's been such a struggle for you

1699
01:04:47,019 --> 01:04:43,849
up to this point in your life but you

1700
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:47,029
can have this deep inner peace and just

1701
01:04:51,549 --> 01:04:49,130
this perfect unfolding or everything is

1702
01:04:53,019 --> 01:04:51,559
synchronistic and like this life is

1703
01:04:55,299 --> 01:04:53,029
waiting for you Alex that you just can't

1704
01:04:57,700 --> 01:04:55,309
man you just can't imagine it you've

1705
01:04:58,779 --> 01:04:57,710
just got to have this shift right and so

1706
01:05:00,430 --> 01:04:58,789
that's what I mean when I'm talking

1707
01:05:03,940 --> 01:05:00,440
about spiritual salesmanship right and

1708
01:05:05,529 --> 01:05:03,950
there are absolutely you know types of

1709
01:05:07,450 --> 01:05:05,539
fundamental well-being where it feels

1710
01:05:09,940 --> 01:05:07,460
like every moment is a hundred percent

1711
01:05:11,650 --> 01:05:09,950
synchronistic there's no doubt about

1712
01:05:14,410 --> 01:05:11,660
that right that is not a lie

1713
01:05:16,570 --> 01:05:14,420
if I'm in that place to say to you it

1714
01:05:18,910 --> 01:05:16,580
can feel like life is 100

1715
01:05:21,430 --> 01:05:18,920
synchronistic all right however I know

1716
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:21,440
people who are in that place sort of a

1717
01:05:24,690 --> 01:05:23,090
hundred percent system synchronistic who

1718
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:24,700
have lost their houses to foreclosure

1719
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:28,010
who have gone to prison who have had

1720
01:05:32,980 --> 01:05:30,530
what outwardly to the rest of us would

1721
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:32,990
seem like highly negative life events

1722
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:36,890
and so for them to also say the other

1723
01:05:41,740 --> 01:05:39,050
part of that statement which is you know

1724
01:05:44,260 --> 01:05:41,750
life will just unfold magically for you

1725
01:05:47,170 --> 01:05:44,270
there will be no more struggle now what

1726
01:05:49,030 --> 01:05:47,180
their meaning internally is oh I lost my

1727
01:05:50,110 --> 01:05:49,040
house well big deal who cares I'll just

1728
01:05:53,290 --> 01:05:50,120
go sleep under a bridge

1729
01:05:56,830 --> 01:05:53,300
no big struggle right but what you hear

1730
01:05:59,740 --> 01:05:56,840
as a normal human being is not oh I

1731
01:06:02,170 --> 01:05:59,750
won't I may lose my house but I won't

1732
01:06:05,110 --> 01:06:02,180
care if I'm sleeping under a bridge for

1733
01:06:07,540 --> 01:06:05,120
the rest of my life that will still feel

1734
01:06:11,170 --> 01:06:07,550
you know sort of fine and synchronistic

1735
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:11,180
and you know whatever else and so

1736
01:06:15,370 --> 01:06:13,730
there's the ending and they know when

1737
01:06:17,350 --> 01:06:15,380
they're communicating these things how

1738
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:17,360
you're hearing it they know that you're

1739
01:06:21,550 --> 01:06:19,970
not understanding it in their from their

1740
01:06:23,530 --> 01:06:21,560
own perspective right but they're kind

1741
01:06:25,270 --> 01:06:23,540
of justifying it from their own

1742
01:06:26,230 --> 01:06:25,280
perspective and I sort of justifying

1743
01:06:28,390 --> 01:06:26,240
what they're saying from their own

1744
01:06:31,290 --> 01:06:28,400
perspective because they're not really

1745
01:06:35,170 --> 01:06:31,300
lying to you right that is how they're

1746
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:35,180
experiencing the world it is deep inner

1747
01:06:40,090 --> 01:06:36,490
peace it is a hundred percent

1748
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:40,100
synchronicity it is an imperturbable you

1749
01:06:44,350 --> 01:06:42,290
know from where they're at it does feel

1750
01:06:45,820 --> 01:06:44,360
like everything is happening exactly as

1751
01:06:47,650 --> 01:06:45,830
it should no matter how adverse the

1752
01:06:49,210 --> 01:06:47,660
events that are happening to them or

1753
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:49,220
whatever else right but they're not

1754
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:50,930
saying to you oh hey by the way I lost

1755
01:06:55,090 --> 01:06:53,330
my house last week you know they're

1756
01:06:58,390 --> 01:06:55,100
leaving out facts like that and they're

1757
01:07:00,640 --> 01:06:58,400
letting sort of your brain fill in this

1758
01:07:03,010 --> 01:07:00,650
sort of magical existence that you can

1759
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:03,020
have if only you'll transition it's a

1760
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:05,330
fundamental well-being and so in that

1761
01:07:10,330 --> 01:07:07,450
sense you know we kind of take issue

1762
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:10,340
from that's where I talk about that's

1763
01:07:14,020 --> 01:07:12,050
what I mean when I say sort of spiritual

1764
01:07:16,150 --> 01:07:14,030
salesmanship it's not necessarily pure

1765
01:07:17,890 --> 01:07:16,160
dishonesty from their own internal

1766
01:07:19,030 --> 01:07:17,900
phenomenological experience but on the

1767
01:07:21,730 --> 01:07:19,040
other hand they're not really giving you

1768
01:07:23,140 --> 01:07:21,740
the whole picture either in terms of

1769
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:23,150
their own struggles and their what you

1770
01:07:26,260 --> 01:07:24,410
would what the normal person would

1771
01:07:27,550 --> 01:07:26,270
consider their own life struggle right

1772
01:07:30,790 --> 01:07:27,560
they're giving you the part where it's

1773
01:07:33,700 --> 01:07:30,800
like man I want that you know your egos

1774
01:07:36,970 --> 01:07:33,710
yeah I'm tired of struggling life sucks

1775
01:07:39,940 --> 01:07:36,980
I want that but they're not telling you

1776
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:39,950
that what your ego calls struggle well

1777
01:07:44,740 --> 01:07:42,650
you know still exist for you basically

1778
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:44,750
on the other side those life events that

1779
01:07:48,670 --> 01:07:46,610
your ego refers to as struggling in the

1780
01:07:51,010 --> 01:07:48,680
world are not gonna probably go away for

1781
01:07:52,750 --> 01:07:51,020
you there's challenges with that too

1782
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:52,760
though I mean and I think you understand

1783
01:07:57,220 --> 01:07:54,970
that but as soon as you get into the

1784
01:07:58,930 --> 01:07:57,230
prescriptive model and away from the

1785
01:08:01,750 --> 01:07:58,940
descriptive model of the social

1786
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:01,760
scientist you're layering your own

1787
01:08:05,140 --> 01:08:03,890
values on there which sure you know

1788
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:05,150
we're pointing at those people and

1789
01:08:09,430 --> 01:08:07,370
saying their vows but I don't want to

1790
01:08:10,870 --> 01:08:09,440
bury the lead because the leads no it's

1791
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:10,880
no question that's true the lead story

1792
01:08:16,900 --> 01:08:13,610
is so important which is as a social

1793
01:08:20,410 --> 01:08:16,910
scientist as you cut away everything

1794
01:08:22,329 --> 01:08:20,420
that isn't then it opens up the

1795
01:08:24,490 --> 01:08:22,339
possibility for everyone to determine

1796
01:08:25,900 --> 01:08:24,500
what is what is for them

1797
01:08:28,059 --> 01:08:25,910
what part of their tradition they want

1798
01:08:30,370 --> 01:08:28,069
to take what part they don't need how

1799
01:08:31,930 --> 01:08:30,380
much of it is social engineering how

1800
01:08:34,210 --> 01:08:31,940
much of it is someone trying to get in

1801
01:08:36,340 --> 01:08:34,220
their pocket for their cults for their

1802
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:36,350
religion for their build a church down

1803
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:38,210
in the corner how much of it is some

1804
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:42,410
kind of larger scale SIOP to control and

1805
01:08:47,829 --> 01:08:44,930
manipulate all that stuff as the social

1806
01:08:49,599 --> 01:08:47,839
scientist you cut cut cut cut cut and

1807
01:08:52,030 --> 01:08:49,609
you say all right I now have the essence

1808
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:52,040
you can go with it from there but I

1809
01:08:57,039 --> 01:08:53,810
certainly understand and we can all

1810
01:08:59,559 --> 01:08:57,049
appreciate a little bit of rage that

1811
01:09:02,140 --> 01:08:59,569
comes up in interacting with these

1812
01:09:05,019 --> 01:09:02,150
communities who are so insistent that

1813
01:09:07,690 --> 01:09:05,029
they're layering is the only layering

1814
01:09:09,519 --> 01:09:07,700
that one can do on that but I guess this

1815
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:09,529
is there anything more we want to say

1816
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:12,290
about what you've labeled as integration

1817
01:09:18,910 --> 01:09:16,250
how we how we yeah this awakening that

1818
01:09:20,590 --> 01:09:18,920
comes through the finders course comes

1819
01:09:23,470 --> 01:09:20,600
through this experience and then

1820
01:09:25,059 --> 01:09:23,480
integrating it into our life yeah

1821
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:25,069
absolutely you could say a lot about it

1822
01:09:29,349 --> 01:09:27,410
and let me let me add that you know

1823
01:09:31,750 --> 01:09:29,359
there are especially I think in the

1824
01:09:33,550 --> 01:09:31,760
non-dual community the modern sort of

1825
01:09:35,349 --> 01:09:33,560
contemporary non-dual community and if

1826
01:09:37,809 --> 01:09:35,359
you think about someone like Scott

1827
01:09:39,370 --> 01:09:37,819
killaby Scott has publicly identified

1828
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:39,380
himself as having participated in our

1829
01:09:43,420 --> 01:09:41,690
research to people and so I can say that

1830
01:09:43,770 --> 01:09:43,430
he's participated on a research I'm not

1831
01:09:45,030 --> 01:09:43,780
going to

1832
01:09:47,580 --> 01:09:45,040
about you know data about him or

1833
01:09:49,950 --> 01:09:47,590
whatever but just to say that I you know

1834
01:09:51,660 --> 01:09:49,960
I have sat down with him at length had

1835
01:09:55,290 --> 01:09:51,670
very meaningful conversations with him

1836
01:09:58,230 --> 01:09:55,300
etc etc he's a great example I think of

1837
01:10:00,600 --> 01:09:58,240
someone who is doing their level best to

1838
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:00,610
avoid those sort of dilemmas those

1839
01:10:04,830 --> 01:10:02,530
Western moral dilemmas if you will from

1840
01:10:06,810 --> 01:10:04,840
a spiritual salesmanship standpoint

1841
01:10:07,980 --> 01:10:06,820
right I remember reading this post from

1842
01:10:11,460 --> 01:10:07,990
him there was this thing going around

1843
01:10:13,500 --> 01:10:11,470
about a guy named Fred Davis who is I

1844
01:10:15,780 --> 01:10:13,510
think a very effective actually non-dual

1845
01:10:17,310 --> 01:10:15,790
teacher and I don't remember actually

1846
01:10:18,570 --> 01:10:17,320
what the scandal was there was some sort

1847
01:10:20,010 --> 01:10:18,580
of scandal going around and I remember

1848
01:10:22,290 --> 01:10:20,020
thinking that doesn't really seem like a

1849
01:10:24,180 --> 01:10:22,300
big deal it's a big deal I think if you

1850
01:10:25,830 --> 01:10:24,190
have a certain belief system around how

1851
01:10:27,540 --> 01:10:25,840
all of these people are supposed to be

1852
01:10:28,590 --> 01:10:27,550
perfect beings that you know don't spit

1853
01:10:30,390 --> 01:10:28,600
their food out when they're talking to

1854
01:10:32,550 --> 01:10:30,400
you over dinner and stuff like that

1855
01:10:34,110 --> 01:10:32,560
right but if you don't have a view of

1856
01:10:37,380 --> 01:10:34,120
them as being perfect beings you're like

1857
01:10:39,380 --> 01:10:37,390
what's the big deal there yeah so Scott

1858
01:10:41,850 --> 01:10:39,390
wrote this post where he was like

1859
01:10:45,090 --> 01:10:41,860
essentially like well here's all the

1860
01:10:47,430 --> 01:10:45,100
that's been wrong in my life I mean

1861
01:10:50,310 --> 01:10:47,440
it was just this amazing transparent

1862
01:10:52,110 --> 01:10:50,320
post and I think the non you know some

1863
01:10:53,850 --> 01:10:52,120
of these non-dual teachers in the

1864
01:10:56,700 --> 01:10:53,860
non-dual portion of this overall

1865
01:11:00,320 --> 01:10:56,710
spiritual religious sort of world have

1866
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:00,330
in recent years really tried hard to be

1867
01:11:05,370 --> 01:11:03,010
straightforward about this and I've been

1868
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:05,380
very very impressed by that because

1869
01:11:09,390 --> 01:11:07,930
that's that's a brave thing to do for

1870
01:11:11,190 --> 01:11:09,400
their businesses if you're in

1871
01:11:13,260 --> 01:11:11,200
competition with a guy across the road

1872
01:11:15,480 --> 01:11:13,270
in the non-dual space and that guy's

1873
01:11:17,340 --> 01:11:15,490
talking about life being perfect for you

1874
01:11:19,380 --> 01:11:17,350
in their version of non-duality after

1875
01:11:21,060 --> 01:11:19,390
you transition and then you read a post

1876
01:11:23,100 --> 01:11:21,070
from someone like Scott who's talking

1877
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:23,110
about his own personal struggles and his

1878
01:11:27,330 --> 01:11:25,210
own difficulties in his own life and

1879
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:27,340
it's just being brutally honest and just

1880
01:11:31,710 --> 01:11:29,770
laying it all bare because of course we

1881
01:11:33,090 --> 01:11:31,720
all have them when you're like us and

1882
01:11:34,890 --> 01:11:33,100
you sort of know all these people and

1883
01:11:36,180 --> 01:11:34,900
know that they all have them some are

1884
01:11:37,590 --> 01:11:36,190
just choosing to talk about them and

1885
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:37,600
some aren't choosing to talk about them

1886
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:40,690
that is just so amazing to me and so

1887
01:11:45,900 --> 01:11:43,690
brave and it is a trend and so it's it

1888
01:11:48,780 --> 01:11:45,910
is a coming trend there is a push back

1889
01:11:51,180 --> 01:11:48,790
in at least a section of that non-dual

1890
01:11:53,100 --> 01:11:51,190
community here in America that is like

1891
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:53,110
really just trying to bare-knuckle it

1892
01:11:57,270 --> 01:11:54,610
and I think we really need to give

1893
01:11:59,400 --> 01:11:57,280
acknowledgement to that so from

1894
01:12:00,900 --> 01:11:59,410
standpoint for integration you know what

1895
01:12:03,450 --> 01:12:00,910
we've been trying to convince teachers

1896
01:12:04,650 --> 01:12:03,460
of for a long time now is that they

1897
01:12:05,850 --> 01:12:04,660
don't need they should I don't think

1898
01:12:08,130 --> 01:12:05,860
that they should really feel in

1899
01:12:09,450 --> 01:12:08,140
competition for seekers they really have

1900
01:12:11,370 --> 01:12:09,460
you know it's like there's not that many

1901
01:12:13,110 --> 01:12:11,380
seekers really sincere seekers out there

1902
01:12:14,670 --> 01:12:13,120
and so if you're trying to earn a living

1903
01:12:16,620 --> 01:12:14,680
doing this that could be challenging and

1904
01:12:18,480 --> 01:12:16,630
it's like oh my gosh I don't want to

1905
01:12:20,190 --> 01:12:18,490
lose my secret or that other guy because

1906
01:12:21,480 --> 01:12:20,200
there's you know how am I gonna replace

1907
01:12:23,790 --> 01:12:21,490
that secret it took me forever to get

1908
01:12:25,500 --> 01:12:23,800
that guy and so there's a lot of sort of

1909
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:25,510
this business stuff that goes on behind

1910
01:12:30,480 --> 01:12:27,850
the scenes in these worlds as well right

1911
01:12:32,630 --> 01:12:30,490
one of the things that I think you're

1912
01:12:34,470 --> 01:12:32,640
gonna see happening if we're successful

1913
01:12:37,170 --> 01:12:34,480
especially you're gonna see it happening

1914
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:37,180
is you're gonna see a transition for

1915
01:12:41,100 --> 01:12:38,290
these people and how they think about

1916
01:12:44,340 --> 01:12:41,110
themselves because to my mind I think a

1917
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:44,350
spiritual teacher is not necessarily

1918
01:12:48,810 --> 01:12:46,330
always the greatest help in

1919
01:12:51,540 --> 01:12:48,820
transitioning someone but they are an

1920
01:12:53,190 --> 01:12:51,550
immense help on the other side of

1921
01:12:55,620 --> 01:12:53,200
transitioning because there aren't that

1922
01:12:58,650 --> 01:12:55,630
many people in the world who have been

1923
01:13:01,170 --> 01:12:58,660
through the life integration process of

1924
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:01,180
this stuff right I mean on the other

1925
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:02,770
side of this the reason that you the

1926
01:13:07,170 --> 01:13:05,410
reason you don't see more genuine

1927
01:13:09,270 --> 01:13:07,180
advertising around this stuff is that

1928
01:13:10,830 --> 01:13:09,280
for instance it's very common for a year

1929
01:13:13,500 --> 01:13:10,840
to two years after the transition to

1930
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:13,510
have a significant drop in motivation so

1931
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:15,010
there's a fundamental shift that occurs

1932
01:13:18,330 --> 01:13:16,690
in your goal attainment you know your

1933
01:13:21,140 --> 01:13:18,340
goals have basically been driven by

1934
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:21,150
neurotic impulses in you which drop away

1935
01:13:25,620 --> 01:13:23,530
right and when you're when you're

1936
01:13:27,150 --> 01:13:25,630
neuroticism drops and your goals fall

1937
01:13:29,100 --> 01:13:27,160
away guess what falls away with that

1938
01:13:31,260 --> 01:13:29,110
motivation right and it's like your

1939
01:13:34,140 --> 01:13:31,270
brain has to go through a period of time

1940
01:13:36,030 --> 01:13:34,150
or it's unraveling your former

1941
01:13:38,550 --> 01:13:36,040
motivation system and rebuilding a new

1942
01:13:40,260 --> 01:13:38,560
motivation system and everybody wants to

1943
01:13:42,210 --> 01:13:40,270
hear I'm gonna get enlightened and I'm

1944
01:13:45,390 --> 01:13:42,220
gonna be 10 times more effective in my

1945
01:13:47,850 --> 01:13:45,400
job right nobody wants to hear I'm gonna

1946
01:13:49,710 --> 01:13:47,860
have issues with motivation or nobody

1947
01:13:51,300 --> 01:13:49,720
wants to hear I'm going to transition to

1948
01:13:54,060 --> 01:13:51,310
this entirely other way of seeing the

1949
01:13:56,310 --> 01:13:54,070
world and a consequence of that is that

1950
01:13:59,670 --> 01:13:56,320
I'm gonna feel sort of like an alien now

1951
01:14:02,180 --> 01:13:59,680
living in normal reality because 99.5%

1952
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:02,190
of the rest of the population is

1953
01:14:06,570 --> 01:14:04,330
experiencing life in this highly

1954
01:14:08,310 --> 01:14:06,580
neurotic way including my wife my

1955
01:14:10,060 --> 01:14:08,320
boyfriend my girlfriend my husband my

1956
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:10,070
wife my boyfriend my kids

1957
01:14:15,220 --> 01:14:12,530
my whoever right every friend I have

1958
01:14:17,950 --> 01:14:15,230
everybody at work literally my entire

1959
01:14:20,470 --> 01:14:17,960
world but and you know and I used to

1960
01:14:23,890 --> 01:14:20,480
experience that I just experienced it

1961
01:14:25,660 --> 01:14:23,900
yesterday I still have a you know fairly

1962
01:14:28,450 --> 01:14:25,670
decent memory of what that experience

1963
01:14:29,500 --> 01:14:28,460
was like but you know I don't want to

1964
01:14:31,810 --> 01:14:29,510
sit around and talk to these people

1965
01:14:34,419 --> 01:14:31,820
about their neurotic stories anymore my

1966
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:34,429
life is no longer a game of me sitting

1967
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:36,770
there validating your neurotic story so

1968
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:38,090
that you'll sit there validating my

1969
01:14:43,660 --> 01:14:40,489
neurotic story right like that to me is

1970
01:14:46,419 --> 01:14:43,670
like just a reduction in my piece not a

1971
01:14:48,189 --> 01:14:46,429
leveling up of my piece and so I'm just

1972
01:14:50,319 --> 01:14:48,199
not interested in doing that anymore you

1973
01:14:52,689 --> 01:14:50,329
know I'm not that interested in reading

1974
01:14:54,490 --> 01:14:52,699
the novels that I read for years or

1975
01:14:56,169 --> 01:14:54,500
watching the TV series with you because

1976
01:14:57,729 --> 01:14:56,179
they're all these story driven neurotic

1977
01:14:59,109 --> 01:14:57,739
sort of things you know that are

1978
01:15:00,850 --> 01:14:59,119
designed to hit me in certain ways and

1979
01:15:02,470 --> 01:15:00,860
make me feel certain ways or whatever

1980
01:15:04,899 --> 01:15:02,480
like I'm at peace I don't need that

1981
01:15:07,300 --> 01:15:04,909
stuff anymore right and so there's like

1982
01:15:10,750 --> 01:15:07,310
these significant life changes that

1983
01:15:13,689 --> 01:15:10,760
occur and who's talking about that right

1984
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:13,699
because like I mean how many people are

1985
01:15:16,930 --> 01:15:15,290
going to sign up for your program to

1986
01:15:18,100 --> 01:15:16,940
some degree and we take a huge risk on

1987
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:18,110
this right because we have all kinds of

1988
01:15:21,669 --> 01:15:19,489
research out there that basically says

1989
01:15:24,100 --> 01:15:21,679
this is what it's like on the other side

1990
01:15:25,330 --> 01:15:24,110
of this and so you know you like you

1991
01:15:28,060 --> 01:15:25,340
sign up with us you sort of know what

1992
01:15:30,430 --> 01:15:28,070
you're getting I understand the dilemma

1993
01:15:32,589 --> 01:15:30,440
and I've seen I even know the histories

1994
01:15:34,750 --> 01:15:32,599
of a lot of these organizations you know

1995
01:15:36,370 --> 01:15:34,760
at what point different advertising

1996
01:15:38,109 --> 01:15:36,380
things were incorporated or at what

1997
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:38,119
point methods were shifted to go from

1998
01:15:41,830 --> 01:15:40,489
being an hour to being 20 minutes so

1999
01:15:43,270 --> 01:15:41,840
that you could pull more people and even

2000
01:15:45,339 --> 01:15:43,280
though you know it's not as effective as

2001
01:15:47,050 --> 01:15:45,349
the hour nonetheless you can't grow to a

2002
01:15:48,819 --> 01:15:47,060
certain size if you don't have it at 10

2003
01:15:50,950 --> 01:15:48,829
or 20 minutes or 1 minute or 5 minutes

2004
01:15:52,780 --> 01:15:50,960
or you know whatever it is I get the

2005
01:15:54,399 --> 01:15:52,790
business decisions that were behind all

2006
01:15:56,410 --> 01:15:54,409
these things even though to the

2007
01:15:58,359 --> 01:15:56,420
adherence it's all nothing is business

2008
01:15:59,500 --> 01:15:58,369
it's none of this it's all nothing to do

2009
01:16:01,419 --> 01:15:59,510
with business but of course these were

2010
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:01,429
all strategic marketing and business

2011
01:16:05,530 --> 01:16:03,770
decisions that have been made as I was

2012
01:16:06,910 --> 01:16:05,540
listening to this over the years I was

2013
01:16:09,399 --> 01:16:06,920
thinking to myself how are we going to

2014
01:16:12,580 --> 01:16:09,409
avoid this I mean I spent the mid-90s

2015
01:16:14,410 --> 01:16:12,590
sort of running a chunk of the the heart

2016
01:16:16,089 --> 01:16:14,420
of one of the worlds but at the time the

2017
01:16:17,530 --> 01:16:16,099
world's first and most significant

2018
01:16:19,810 --> 01:16:17,540
advertising glamour right and I've got a

2019
01:16:22,149 --> 01:16:19,820
background in advertising and marketing

2020
01:16:22,860 --> 01:16:22,159
and I was listening to these people's

2021
01:16:25,020 --> 01:16:22,870
business

2022
01:16:27,150 --> 01:16:25,030
descriptions you know and how they

2023
01:16:28,290 --> 01:16:27,160
devolved them over time and the decision

2024
01:16:29,790 --> 01:16:28,300
that they'd come to and how they'd

2025
01:16:32,070 --> 01:16:29,800
morally justified them inside their own

2026
01:16:33,870 --> 01:16:32,080
minds and all of that and the whole time

2027
01:16:35,070 --> 01:16:33,880
that I'm listening to that I'm noting it

2028
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:35,080
for research but I'm also sort of

2029
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:37,330
thinking to myself holy crap you know

2030
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:39,250
how can you get around that and I think

2031
01:16:43,470 --> 01:16:41,770
there isn't a good way to get around it

2032
01:16:45,210 --> 01:16:43,480
you sort of have to you have to make a

2033
01:16:47,550 --> 01:16:45,220
decision to go one way or the other it

2034
01:16:49,740 --> 01:16:47,560
has to either be I'm gonna give you the

2035
01:16:51,150 --> 01:16:49,750
life as a synchronistic Golden Path you

2036
01:16:52,380 --> 01:16:51,160
know everything is going to be perfect

2037
01:16:53,700 --> 01:16:52,390
for you and not tell you that I just

2038
01:16:55,620 --> 01:16:53,710
lost my house I'm gonna sort of leave

2039
01:16:57,270 --> 01:16:55,630
that part out of it but I'm being honest

2040
01:17:00,150 --> 01:16:57,280
about how this moment is feeling for me

2041
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:00,160
or you have to be like you know you're

2042
01:17:05,490 --> 01:17:02,410
gonna have major life changes here

2043
01:17:07,290 --> 01:17:05,500
you're gonna your life as a finder it's

2044
01:17:08,970 --> 01:17:07,300
going to be to some degree a moment

2045
01:17:10,650 --> 01:17:08,980
depending upon where you land the degree

2046
01:17:12,090 --> 01:17:10,660
of agency you still have all of that I

2047
01:17:13,950 --> 01:17:12,100
mean let's leave all that aside for the

2048
01:17:15,150 --> 01:17:13,960
moment in terms of debating the nuances

2049
01:17:17,460 --> 01:17:15,160
of fundamental well-being and the

2050
01:17:19,050 --> 01:17:17,470
different types of it and all that and

2051
01:17:21,420 --> 01:17:19,060
let me just say generically you know to

2052
01:17:23,820 --> 01:17:21,430
some degree your life is going to be a

2053
01:17:26,010 --> 01:17:23,830
moment-to-moment decision of how much of

2054
01:17:27,870 --> 01:17:26,020
that deep internal peace are you willing

2055
01:17:30,270 --> 01:17:27,880
to erode for personal effectiveness in

2056
01:17:33,300 --> 01:17:30,280
the world because the entire rest of the

2057
01:17:34,700 --> 01:17:33,310
world is sort of anti that internal

2058
01:17:37,770 --> 01:17:34,710
personal effectiveness and so

2059
01:17:39,750 --> 01:17:37,780
integration at its heart 4p NSE comes

2060
01:17:41,580 --> 01:17:39,760
down to psychological deconditioning and

2061
01:17:42,930 --> 01:17:41,590
undoing all of those old programming

2062
01:17:44,370 --> 01:17:42,940
patterns because you don't have the

2063
01:17:46,590 --> 01:17:44,380
sense of software enforcing them anymore

2064
01:17:47,880 --> 01:17:46,600
an optimum ways to do that and you know

2065
01:17:49,980 --> 01:17:47,890
that's a lot of our research and a lot

2066
01:17:51,630 --> 01:17:49,990
of our work right now and so that's all

2067
01:17:53,250 --> 01:17:51,640
really important but the fundamental

2068
01:17:55,650 --> 01:17:53,260
question of living in the world comes

2069
01:17:58,500 --> 01:17:55,660
down to how much of my piece am I going

2070
01:18:00,030 --> 01:17:58,510
to a road in order to have an X degree

2071
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:00,040
of effectiveness and so there's a

2072
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:01,810
there's for instance a high divorce rate

2073
01:18:07,170 --> 01:18:04,810
among people not advertised right like

2074
01:18:09,570 --> 01:18:07,180
who's putting that in their you know web

2075
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:09,580
pages right hey come and get enlightened

2076
01:18:13,380 --> 01:18:11,890
then you'll probably get divorced but

2077
01:18:15,420 --> 01:18:13,390
there's a high degree of divorce rate

2078
01:18:18,990 --> 01:18:15,430
among this right because you wake up and

2079
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:19,000
you have you know this spouse that is

2080
01:18:21,900 --> 01:18:20,410
still there they're not awake they're

2081
01:18:23,580 --> 01:18:21,910
not happy that you're happy all the time

2082
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:23,590
I mean as much as we would like to think

2083
01:18:27,090 --> 01:18:24,970
that they have our best interest at

2084
01:18:28,740 --> 01:18:27,100
heart in every moment of our life you

2085
01:18:30,390 --> 01:18:28,750
know the reality is like now you're sort

2086
01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:30,400
of the shining example of what their

2087
01:18:33,990 --> 01:18:32,530
system has been yearning for since they

2088
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:34,000
were a little kid or what anyone in a

2089
01:18:37,970 --> 01:18:35,730
relationship understands Thursday

2090
01:18:40,340 --> 01:18:37,980
and when those dynamics change

2091
01:18:42,530 --> 01:18:40,350
everything changes you know let me just

2092
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:42,540
anyway no I just want to take it in a

2093
01:18:46,580 --> 01:18:43,770
slightly different direction because you

2094
01:18:49,490 --> 01:18:46,590
said something I think that might be

2095
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:49,500
very evidence a profound but it's not

2096
01:18:55,370 --> 01:18:52,290
just profound I think it's probably true

2097
01:18:57,530 --> 01:18:55,380
from a guy who is a bit of a futurist

2098
01:19:01,220 --> 01:18:57,540
and has kind of created this future I

2099
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:01,230
know you're very much into tech not for

2100
01:19:07,550 --> 01:19:05,210
the sake of tech but as a tool for maybe

2101
01:19:10,610 --> 01:19:07,560
facilitating this transition and I

2102
01:19:13,850 --> 01:19:10,620
wonder if that's also informing this

2103
01:19:16,460 --> 01:19:13,860
future you see because if tech does

2104
01:19:19,540 --> 01:19:16,470
begin to play more of a role of this

2105
01:19:22,970 --> 01:19:19,550
then we have technology that's

2106
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:22,980
facilitating change it lessens the need

2107
01:19:30,530 --> 01:19:26,970
for someone in the physical form doing

2108
01:19:34,610 --> 01:19:30,540
that on one on one or even one on 10

2109
01:19:37,430 --> 01:19:34,620
basis but it would then maybe bring the

2110
01:19:38,780 --> 01:19:37,440
high touch aspect back into the

2111
01:19:40,970 --> 01:19:38,790
integration like you're talking about

2112
01:19:42,500 --> 01:19:40,980
because it would just seem to me that

2113
01:19:44,870 --> 01:19:42,510
potentially that's what you also

2114
01:19:48,140 --> 01:19:44,880
envision or am I wrong there yeah I do

2115
01:19:49,970 --> 01:19:48,150
think that it's difficult for me knowing

2116
01:19:52,310 --> 01:19:49,980
what I know now of course we can all be

2117
01:19:54,979 --> 01:19:52,320
wrong you know in the next 10 seconds

2118
01:19:57,700 --> 01:19:54,989
right but it's difficult for me to know

2119
01:20:00,920 --> 01:19:57,710
to to think knowing what I know now that

2120
01:20:02,870 --> 01:20:00,930
this is going to be translatable to six

2121
01:20:05,780 --> 01:20:02,880
billion people in a non technological

2122
01:20:07,550 --> 01:20:05,790
form we've analyzed the data from the

2123
01:20:09,740 --> 01:20:07,560
finest course every way we possibly can

2124
01:20:12,470 --> 01:20:09,750
and one key thing about the finders

2125
01:20:15,170 --> 01:20:12,480
course that failed I think our biggest

2126
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:15,180
failure to date is that we have not been

2127
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:17,610
able to find a way to match people up

2128
01:20:20,630 --> 01:20:19,050
with a method that works for them that's

2129
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:20,640
what the entire course tries to do right

2130
01:20:23,510 --> 01:20:22,050
you basically go a week to week to week

2131
01:20:24,890 --> 01:20:23,520
and you try different stuff that is all

2132
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:24,900
the best stuff that rose to the top of

2133
01:20:28,430 --> 01:20:26,850
our research and you do it in a certain

2134
01:20:30,590 --> 01:20:28,440
systematic way that increases its

2135
01:20:32,840 --> 01:20:30,600
effectiveness and all that but the

2136
01:20:34,070 --> 01:20:32,850
reality is fundamentally what we were

2137
01:20:35,270 --> 01:20:34,080
trying to get out with that experiment

2138
01:20:36,979 --> 01:20:35,280
what we were trying to do with that

2139
01:20:38,540 --> 01:20:36,989
experiment was not really refine our

2140
01:20:41,060 --> 01:20:38,550
understanding of fundamental well-being

2141
01:20:43,130 --> 01:20:41,070
which we did but it was to figure out

2142
01:20:45,110 --> 01:20:43,140
can I give you a pencil and paper

2143
01:20:46,939 --> 01:20:45,120
questionnaire or interview you for a

2144
01:20:49,370 --> 01:20:46,949
couple of minutes or something and then

2145
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:49,380
say you know what Alex headless way is

2146
01:20:52,189 --> 01:20:50,130
your thing man

2147
01:20:53,839 --> 01:20:52,199
that's what you need that's the thing

2148
01:20:55,699 --> 01:20:53,849
you know just do it for this week and

2149
01:20:56,660 --> 01:20:55,709
you'll be you'll be awake by Friday

2150
01:20:58,250 --> 01:20:56,670
you know you'll transition to

2151
01:21:00,469 --> 01:20:58,260
fundamental well being by Friday and

2152
01:21:01,609 --> 01:21:00,479
it'll all be good come back to us and

2153
01:21:03,799 --> 01:21:01,619
you know I'll give some integration

2154
01:21:05,060 --> 01:21:03,809
stuff I just let me I mean maybe it'll

2155
01:21:06,620 --> 01:21:05,070
happen Wednesday Thursday you know

2156
01:21:07,699 --> 01:21:06,630
whenever it happens just you know just

2157
01:21:10,189 --> 01:21:07,709
ping me and I'll shoot you some

2158
01:21:12,529 --> 01:21:10,199
integration stuff over right so we never

2159
01:21:14,660 --> 01:21:12,539
we have not yet reached a point with our

2160
01:21:15,890 --> 01:21:14,670
data analysis that has allowed us to do

2161
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:15,900
that you still have to take the whole

2162
01:21:22,459 --> 01:21:19,050
program and who the heck you know in a

2163
01:21:24,259 --> 01:21:22,469
developing country can spend 2 to 3

2164
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:24,269
hours a day in the West it's more doable

2165
01:21:28,549 --> 01:21:26,010
for a certain class of people at least

2166
01:21:31,189 --> 01:21:28,559
to be able to do that like it can have

2167
01:21:33,319 --> 01:21:31,199
the impact that it has among the people

2168
01:21:35,180 --> 01:21:33,329
that it's sort of a possible fit for

2169
01:21:37,069 --> 01:21:35,190
what it is not going to scale to a

2170
01:21:40,699 --> 01:21:37,079
billion people it's not going to scale

2171
01:21:42,620 --> 01:21:40,709
to 500 million people and because we we

2172
01:21:44,930 --> 01:21:42,630
fundamentally were not able to be

2173
01:21:47,719 --> 01:21:44,940
successful at creating that matching

2174
01:21:49,879 --> 01:21:47,729
algorithm which could potentially allow

2175
01:21:51,859 --> 01:21:49,889
a more traditional thing like just a

2176
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:51,869
psychological intervention like a

2177
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:53,610
meditation or a cognitive science hack

2178
01:21:58,759 --> 01:21:56,159
or a positive psychology exercise or

2179
01:22:00,890 --> 01:21:58,769
whatever it is to scale you know it's I

2180
01:22:03,589 --> 01:22:00,900
think in my mind it's going to come down

2181
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:03,599
to technology unless you know I mean you

2182
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:05,130
never know we have machine learning

2183
01:22:07,669 --> 01:22:06,449
people and AI people that are

2184
01:22:09,379 --> 01:22:07,679
volunteering their time on the project

2185
01:22:11,060 --> 01:22:09,389
looking at that data deep mining it

2186
01:22:12,649 --> 01:22:11,070
something might come out of that that

2187
01:22:14,180 --> 01:22:12,659
just humans couldn't see with standard

2188
01:22:16,370 --> 01:22:14,190
statistical methods and analyses

2189
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:16,380
I won't rule that out and so you know I

2190
01:22:19,729 --> 01:22:18,090
could you know we could get off the

2191
01:22:23,149 --> 01:22:19,739
phone I could check my email

2192
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:23,159
and be like oh hey Alex I got to revise

2193
01:22:26,839 --> 01:22:24,690
that statement right it could happen at

2194
01:22:28,609 --> 01:22:26,849
any time but I'm not I'm assuming if

2195
01:22:30,799 --> 01:22:28,619
that still wouldn't shut down the tech

2196
01:22:32,959 --> 01:22:30,809
path either I mean the tech path would

2197
01:22:35,629 --> 01:22:32,969
still have to continue to go forward as

2198
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:35,639
well I think the point you made about

2199
01:22:42,770 --> 01:22:39,690
the sound frequency of the Tibetan

2200
01:22:44,750 --> 01:22:42,780
symbols is I think undeniable at some

2201
01:22:46,729 --> 01:22:44,760
level so it does seem like the

2202
01:22:49,069 --> 01:22:46,739
technology has to go forward that has to

2203
01:22:52,459 --> 01:22:49,079
be part of this mission yeah yeah I

2204
01:22:54,259 --> 01:22:52,469
think so unless something - unless

2205
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:54,269
something dramatically changes right now

2206
01:23:00,919 --> 01:22:56,880
where we're basically pinning our hopes

2207
01:23:03,809 --> 01:23:00,929
on really sort of a combination

2208
01:23:05,539 --> 01:23:03,819
transcranial light stimulation meaning

2209
01:23:09,289 --> 01:23:05,549
light that goes through the skull and

2210
01:23:11,459 --> 01:23:09,299
transcranial ultrasound stimulation and

2211
01:23:13,919 --> 01:23:11,469
the problem for the transcranial

2212
01:23:16,739 --> 01:23:13,929
ultrasound stimulation is that once it's

2213
01:23:18,839 --> 01:23:16,749
out of the lab there's going to be you

2214
01:23:21,329 --> 01:23:18,849
know ridiculously long and expensive FDA

2215
01:23:22,379 --> 01:23:21,339
processes and you know stuff like that

2216
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:22,389
in order to make it more widely

2217
01:23:28,770 --> 01:23:27,010
available to people and so it's it's got

2218
01:23:30,329 --> 01:23:28,780
a lot of regulatory hurdles for the West

2219
01:23:31,799 --> 01:23:30,339
associated with it I think that's less

2220
01:23:33,569 --> 01:23:31,809
true I think it can probably affect a

2221
01:23:36,629 --> 01:23:33,579
lot of populations in places like India

2222
01:23:38,399 --> 01:23:36,639
or China or whatever before that and

2223
01:23:42,089 --> 01:23:38,409
probably those populations will be the

2224
01:23:43,109 --> 01:23:42,099
ones the benefit initially but and I

2225
01:23:44,609 --> 01:23:43,119
think that's fine because there's

2226
01:23:46,919 --> 01:23:44,619
billions of people there we're not

2227
01:23:49,139 --> 01:23:46,929
really sort of country centric per se in

2228
01:23:50,909 --> 01:23:49,149
any way you know we're sort of just like

2229
01:23:54,599 --> 01:23:50,919
getting this to as many people as we can

2230
01:23:56,459 --> 01:23:54,609
possibly get it to oriented so but the

2231
01:23:58,619 --> 01:23:56,469
transcranial ultrasound stuff you know

2232
01:24:00,299 --> 01:23:58,629
the our chief scientist here literally

2233
01:24:01,409 --> 01:24:00,309
came to me a couple of morning's ago and

2234
01:24:02,849 --> 01:24:01,419
was like you know I think we've reached

2235
01:24:04,829 --> 01:24:02,859
the point where we have where we can say

2236
01:24:06,389 --> 01:24:04,839
that we're really reliably getting

2237
01:24:08,369 --> 01:24:06,399
people into location one and a

2238
01:24:10,229 --> 01:24:08,379
fundamental well being you know with

2239
01:24:12,959 --> 01:24:10,239
this technology now it's still extremely

2240
01:24:15,929 --> 01:24:12,969
expensive you know you're talking about

2241
01:24:18,419 --> 01:24:15,939
really sort of all I mean our budget is

2242
01:24:21,299 --> 01:24:18,429
in the millions a year for that project

2243
01:24:22,919 --> 01:24:21,309
and so if you were to divide out you

2244
01:24:25,529 --> 01:24:22,929
know the amount of stimulation time

2245
01:24:28,589 --> 01:24:25,539
that's possibly today by millions of

2246
01:24:30,929 --> 01:24:28,599
dollars you know you get to a very high

2247
01:24:33,750 --> 01:24:30,939
cost for that at this particular moment

2248
01:24:35,549 --> 01:24:33,760
in time but you know we get up every day

2249
01:24:37,319 --> 01:24:35,559
and we work on it and we're advancing it

2250
01:24:38,789 --> 01:24:37,329
and you know we have a lot of really

2251
01:24:41,339 --> 01:24:38,799
great people working with us all around

2252
01:24:43,409 --> 01:24:41,349
the world on it and I it's easy for me

2253
01:24:45,779 --> 01:24:43,419
to see over the next four or five six

2254
01:24:48,329 --> 01:24:45,789
years having something that is really

2255
01:24:50,399 --> 01:24:48,339
quite accessible technologically okay

2256
01:24:51,449 --> 01:24:50,409
Jeffrey we've been at this for an hour

2257
01:24:54,239 --> 01:24:51,459
and a half you've been incredibly

2258
01:24:56,549 --> 01:24:54,249
generous with your time I really do hope

2259
01:24:58,559 --> 01:24:56,559
people check out this book the finders

2260
01:25:00,989 --> 01:24:58,569
and your website where you can just a

2261
01:25:03,750 --> 01:25:00,999
ton of information once you dive in

2262
01:25:07,319 --> 01:25:03,760
you'll find your own path I can't resist

2263
01:25:10,019 --> 01:25:07,329
though talking about a couple of map

2264
01:25:12,539 --> 01:25:10,029
versus territory questions because as we

2265
01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:12,549
said you are a social scientist but

2266
01:25:17,140 --> 01:25:14,330
you're also

2267
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:17,150
location for and beyond guy which I'll

2268
01:25:22,710 --> 01:25:19,930
leave folks to figure out for themselves

2269
01:25:26,530 --> 01:25:22,720
what have you learned what has your

2270
01:25:29,380 --> 01:25:26,540
personal experience been with some of

2271
01:25:32,850 --> 01:25:29,390
the things that I care about in terms of

2272
01:25:35,500 --> 01:25:32,860
this extended consciousness realm that

2273
01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:35,510
does seem to be out there once we get

2274
01:25:41,740 --> 01:25:39,170
past this busy ordinary state that bogs

2275
01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:41,750
this down minute to minute so I want to

2276
01:25:48,820 --> 01:25:45,170
talk about in de psychedelics hungry

2277
01:25:50,620 --> 01:25:48,830
ghosts and demons shamans and magic et

2278
01:25:54,100 --> 01:25:50,630
all these things are things that

2279
01:25:57,070 --> 01:25:54,110
interest me I'll let you pull on any one

2280
01:25:59,620 --> 01:25:57,080
of those threads to begin with sure

2281
01:26:03,090 --> 01:25:59,630
so the in the finders I'd I had to add a

2282
01:26:05,860 --> 01:26:03,100
chapter on location five and beyond

2283
01:26:07,780 --> 01:26:05,870
because frankly too many people who have

2284
01:26:09,130 --> 01:26:07,790
just taken the finders course experiment

2285
01:26:11,290 --> 01:26:09,140
and participated in the finders courts

2286
01:26:12,970 --> 01:26:11,300
experiment have gone there now and so I

2287
01:26:15,220 --> 01:26:12,980
had hesitated for a long time and

2288
01:26:17,170 --> 01:26:15,230
talking about those locations and let me

2289
01:26:18,340 --> 01:26:17,180
just say why before we get into what

2290
01:26:20,380 --> 01:26:18,350
you're talking about which we can

2291
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:20,390
totally talk about I hesitate about

2292
01:26:23,110 --> 01:26:22,010
talking about these latter locations

2293
01:26:25,570 --> 01:26:23,120
because I think they're a little

2294
01:26:27,100 --> 01:26:25,580
dangerous this is this goes back to

2295
01:26:29,230 --> 01:26:27,110
where systems do have tremendous value

2296
01:26:30,970 --> 01:26:29,240
you know like I have an enormous amount

2297
01:26:32,290 --> 01:26:30,980
of respect for Tibetan Buddhism for

2298
01:26:35,290 --> 01:26:32,300
instance I think that they have a very

2299
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:35,300
detailed map I think that they have a

2300
01:26:39,490 --> 01:26:37,370
huge range of methods that are highly

2301
01:26:41,740 --> 01:26:39,500
and precisely effective across that map

2302
01:26:44,800 --> 01:26:41,750
very difficult for Westerners to get to

2303
01:26:46,420 --> 01:26:44,810
I think even very devoted Westerners and

2304
01:26:48,010 --> 01:26:46,430
part of that is because they believe

2305
01:26:49,900 --> 01:26:48,020
that a lot of those methods only work

2306
01:26:52,570 --> 01:26:49,910
literally at specific physical places

2307
01:26:53,710 --> 01:26:52,580
even and so and some of and it's

2308
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:53,720
interesting because they've sort of lost

2309
01:26:57,100 --> 01:26:55,130
they feel if you really talk to these

2310
01:26:58,360 --> 01:26:57,110
guys they feel like they've sort of lost

2311
01:26:59,770 --> 01:26:58,370
some of their effectiveness at their

2312
01:27:01,480 --> 01:26:59,780
system because you know the Chinese have

2313
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:01,490
taken those places in some cases and

2314
01:27:05,380 --> 01:27:03,410
it's it's all very complicated but just

2315
01:27:06,880 --> 01:27:05,390
generically speaking I have an enormous

2316
01:27:09,310 --> 01:27:06,890
amount of respect for that particular

2317
01:27:11,620 --> 01:27:09,320
system and the degree of detail and the

2318
01:27:12,910 --> 01:27:11,630
fine grain detail and whatnot sort of is

2319
01:27:15,790 --> 01:27:12,920
associated in it and one of those things

2320
01:27:17,440 --> 01:27:15,800
that they provide is the support for

2321
01:27:20,980 --> 01:27:17,450
these later locations like they really

2322
01:27:22,420 --> 01:27:20,990
understand what's needed when you go to

2323
01:27:24,730 --> 01:27:22,430
them they understand that they're you

2324
01:27:26,410 --> 01:27:24,740
know very isolating their version of

2325
01:27:27,340 --> 01:27:26,420
them there's a couple of major versions

2326
01:27:27,969 --> 01:27:27,350
of them and they sort of have a

2327
01:27:30,699 --> 01:27:27,979
preferred where

2328
01:27:32,949 --> 01:27:30,709
and so there's a you know very isolating

2329
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:32,959
but also somewhat dangerous and so

2330
01:27:38,439 --> 01:27:34,449
imagine that you have sort of

2331
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:38,449
deconstructed the sense of self down to

2332
01:27:42,609 --> 01:27:40,130
the point where you're getting to the

2333
01:27:44,830 --> 01:27:42,619
you're getting so early in your brains

2334
01:27:46,390 --> 01:27:44,840
programming if you just think of your

2335
01:27:48,399 --> 01:27:46,400
brain is sort of this programmed thing

2336
01:27:50,049 --> 01:27:48,409
that has been you had code layer on top

2337
01:27:51,100 --> 01:27:50,059
of code layered on top of code layer on

2338
01:27:52,540 --> 01:27:51,110
top of code and you're sort of stripping

2339
01:27:53,890 --> 01:27:52,550
those off or you're reprogramming them

2340
01:27:55,449 --> 01:27:53,900
in different ways that are convenient as

2341
01:27:57,219 --> 01:27:55,459
you go through this process and you get

2342
01:27:59,290 --> 01:27:57,229
down low enough you eventually hit

2343
01:28:01,839 --> 01:27:59,300
things like your actual binding to your

2344
01:28:03,549 --> 01:28:01,849
sensory system in certain ways and so

2345
01:28:06,279 --> 01:28:03,559
what people actually will talk about as

2346
01:28:08,169 --> 01:28:06,289
literally losing consciousness for

2347
01:28:10,649 --> 01:28:08,179
periods of time like having a glitch in

2348
01:28:13,620 --> 01:28:10,659
the system where they lose consciousness

2349
01:28:17,290 --> 01:28:13,630
and you know I've talked to people who

2350
01:28:20,020 --> 01:28:17,300
were found a weekend you know laying on

2351
01:28:22,239 --> 01:28:20,030
their floor rush to the hospital you

2352
01:28:24,430 --> 01:28:22,249
know we're lucky to have lived from

2353
01:28:27,250 --> 01:28:24,440
doing certain practices that you know

2354
01:28:28,959 --> 01:28:27,260
move them into these later locations but

2355
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:28,969
we're doing them in an unsupervised way

2356
01:28:33,609 --> 01:28:31,130
alone in their apartment just go on

2357
01:28:35,680 --> 01:28:33,619
YouTube and look at sadhus who arms are

2358
01:28:38,500 --> 01:28:35,690
deformed because they've held them in a

2359
01:28:40,209 --> 01:28:38,510
particular position for long periods of

2360
01:28:43,180 --> 01:28:40,219
time and it's another extension of the

2361
01:28:45,129 --> 01:28:43,190
same thing of reprogramming down to a

2362
01:28:48,100 --> 01:28:45,139
level where you're yeah but go ahead

2363
01:28:49,600 --> 01:28:48,110
yeah so it's with that caveat I just I

2364
01:28:50,830 --> 01:28:49,610
always want to talk about that caveat

2365
01:28:53,709 --> 01:28:50,840
before I talk about these later

2366
01:28:56,529 --> 01:28:53,719
locations because I think people will

2367
01:28:58,000 --> 01:28:56,539
hear like oh that sounds cool but I

2368
01:28:59,529 --> 01:28:58,010
think it's also very important to be

2369
01:29:02,560 --> 01:28:59,539
realistic about all of this

2370
01:29:04,060 --> 01:29:02,570
so in locations five through nine which

2371
01:29:05,350 --> 01:29:04,070
is the next batch we look at one through

2372
01:29:07,660 --> 01:29:05,360
four as a grouping we look at five

2373
01:29:09,009 --> 01:29:07,670
through nine as a grouping in locations

2374
01:29:10,689 --> 01:29:09,019
five through nine and the stuff that

2375
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:10,699
you're interested in one of the things

2376
01:29:17,799 --> 01:29:14,090
that we often see is is actually an

2377
01:29:19,390 --> 01:29:17,809
increase in accuracy of intuition what

2378
01:29:22,660 --> 01:29:19,400
people might call sort of psychic

2379
01:29:24,790 --> 01:29:22,670
premonitions and stuff like that I think

2380
01:29:27,959 --> 01:29:24,800
that's that's a very interesting it's

2381
01:29:31,359 --> 01:29:27,969
been difficult for us to test that on

2382
01:29:33,910 --> 01:29:31,369
you know a practical level we have been

2383
01:29:35,709 --> 01:29:33,920
able to test it in some ways and also

2384
01:29:37,449 --> 01:29:35,719
Dean Radin has tested some of these

2385
01:29:40,629 --> 01:29:37,459
people you know with some of his

2386
01:29:41,290 --> 01:29:40,639
presentiment analysis stuff and I

2387
01:29:42,460 --> 01:29:41,300
actually haven't

2388
01:29:44,530 --> 01:29:42,470
asked Dean if he's published that

2389
01:29:47,080 --> 01:29:44,540
anywhere I would only talk to him about

2390
01:29:49,420 --> 01:29:47,090
it but he you know in conversation says

2391
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:49,430
that he has seen very statistically

2392
01:29:53,410 --> 01:29:51,410
significant differences and these

2393
01:29:56,560 --> 01:29:53,420
populations of people who are in you

2394
01:29:58,480 --> 01:29:56,570
know PN se fundamental well-being let's

2395
01:30:00,160 --> 01:29:58,490
dive into that for a second Dean Radin

2396
01:30:02,200 --> 01:30:00,170
just interviewed him a couple months ago

2397
01:30:05,110 --> 01:30:02,210
so now he's into the magic thing right

2398
01:30:07,060 --> 01:30:05,120
so now he's like let's look at magic and

2399
01:30:09,100 --> 01:30:07,070
what that means and as part of that the

2400
01:30:11,290 --> 01:30:09,110
thing that's confusing for me is he says

2401
01:30:14,170 --> 01:30:11,300
you know I never even considered spirit

2402
01:30:16,150 --> 01:30:14,180
quote-unquote until a year ago which on

2403
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:16,160
one hand I get and I appreciate it on

2404
01:30:19,630 --> 01:30:18,050
the other hand ago how are you even you

2405
01:30:21,730 --> 01:30:19,640
know she caught a lot of catching up to

2406
01:30:24,730 --> 01:30:21,740
do but the other thing is so you enter

2407
01:30:27,460 --> 01:30:24,740
that realm and you say what does that

2408
01:30:30,070 --> 01:30:27,470
mean what does that mean that one of the

2409
01:30:33,220 --> 01:30:30,080
funk going to study claims to have

2410
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:33,230
manifested a bunch of crows that flew

2411
01:30:37,870 --> 01:30:35,570
through his chimney and all over

2412
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:37,880
the floor and the next day the crows

2413
01:30:41,650 --> 01:30:40,010
weren't there but the crows was

2414
01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:41,660
there on the floor for him to see and

2415
01:30:47,410 --> 01:30:43,730
for everyone else to see I mean this is

2416
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:47,420
altering reality in a way that doesn't

2417
01:30:54,220 --> 01:30:51,770
fit with our ordinary understanding even

2418
01:30:57,010 --> 01:30:54,230
if we go location one through four we

2419
01:30:59,020 --> 01:30:57,020
get the sense that there is this again

2420
01:31:01,660 --> 01:30:59,030
map versus territory that there's this

2421
01:31:05,890 --> 01:31:01,670
territory out there that might be

2422
01:31:09,250 --> 01:31:05,900
completely different from the map that

2423
01:31:11,950 --> 01:31:09,260
we normally associate with it in is that

2424
01:31:14,260 --> 01:31:11,960
ok I like as a social scientist saying

2425
01:31:16,660 --> 01:31:14,270
you know don't worry about that

2426
01:31:18,670 --> 01:31:16,670
shut up and calculate become shut up and

2427
01:31:21,370 --> 01:31:18,680
meditate I think there's a practical

2428
01:31:23,140 --> 01:31:21,380
part of that yeah I you know I wonder a

2429
01:31:25,780 --> 01:31:23,150
lot about that as well because there

2430
01:31:30,190 --> 01:31:25,790
certainly that's a very consistent

2431
01:31:31,480 --> 01:31:30,200
report in that location 5 to 9 range and

2432
01:31:34,630 --> 01:31:31,490
the further someone goes in that

2433
01:31:37,450 --> 01:31:34,640
location 5 to 9 range the more integral

2434
01:31:40,360 --> 01:31:37,460
to their life those types of reports

2435
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:40,370
seem to be it's it's interesting I was

2436
01:31:43,780 --> 01:31:42,170
talking to a famous meditation teacher

2437
01:31:46,660 --> 01:31:43,790
who was here at the house getting

2438
01:31:48,940 --> 01:31:46,670
stemmed a couple of months ago when I

2439
01:31:51,910 --> 01:31:48,950
say house we have a facility here that

2440
01:31:54,489 --> 01:31:51,920
is like a big Silicon Valley style

2441
01:31:56,680 --> 01:31:54,499
startup house type place

2442
01:31:58,810 --> 01:31:56,690
where the team lives and where we do a

2443
01:32:00,160 --> 01:31:58,820
lot of our research that's nice because

2444
01:32:01,899 --> 01:32:00,170
we can have people in and they can stay

2445
01:32:03,609 --> 01:32:01,909
and you know the best conversations

2446
01:32:05,379 --> 01:32:03,619
always occur off hours and things like

2447
01:32:07,689 --> 01:32:05,389
that right let's say you kind of want to

2448
01:32:10,629 --> 01:32:07,699
facilitate that and we were talking

2449
01:32:13,000 --> 01:32:10,639
about locations five through nine and he

2450
01:32:16,390 --> 01:32:13,010
was very negative on like the psychic

2451
01:32:18,580 --> 01:32:16,400
stuff and the psychokinesis stuff that

2452
01:32:20,229 --> 01:32:18,590
comes after a location nine and and

2453
01:32:22,479 --> 01:32:20,239
stuff like that he was just like you

2454
01:32:24,669 --> 01:32:22,489
know you cannot sort his belief was you

2455
01:32:26,200 --> 01:32:24,679
cannot sort locations you should not be

2456
01:32:28,750 --> 01:32:26,210
thinking of that as the primary change

2457
01:32:30,310 --> 01:32:28,760
that occurs in that location or whatever

2458
01:32:32,259 --> 01:32:30,320
else and our point was well you know

2459
01:32:34,979 --> 01:32:32,269
listen we're looking at the major we're

2460
01:32:37,839 --> 01:32:34,989
primarily cognitive science focused and

2461
01:32:39,700 --> 01:32:37,849
phenomenological you know report focused

2462
01:32:41,709 --> 01:32:39,710
as well and if that's like the major

2463
01:32:43,330 --> 01:32:41,719
change in phenomenological reports and

2464
01:32:44,529 --> 01:32:43,340
assert or one of the major changes then

2465
01:32:47,350 --> 01:32:44,539
that's and then that becomes a major

2466
01:32:49,359 --> 01:32:47,360
category of at least self-reported

2467
01:32:50,890 --> 01:32:49,369
evidence to us we're not gonna leave

2468
01:32:52,989 --> 01:32:50,900
that on the table but it was interesting

2469
01:32:56,140 --> 01:32:52,999
because you had this very almost like an

2470
01:32:58,509 --> 01:32:56,150
like a fervent anti for God's sakes

2471
01:33:01,270 --> 01:32:58,519
don't talk about that kind of way about

2472
01:33:04,089 --> 01:33:01,280
him now he's he's very much like a

2473
01:33:06,910 --> 01:33:04,099
mainstream sort of teacher very popular

2474
01:33:08,859 --> 01:33:06,920
very mainstream sort of teacher and I

2475
01:33:11,169 --> 01:33:08,869
think maybe it maybe it's a branding

2476
01:33:12,850 --> 01:33:11,179
decision I'm not sure maybe he just

2477
01:33:14,620 --> 01:33:12,860
doesn't necessarily want to associate it

2478
01:33:16,779 --> 01:33:14,630
with this sort of more scientifically or

2479
01:33:18,219 --> 01:33:16,789
in a meditation brand or something like

2480
01:33:21,759 --> 01:33:18,229
that I don't know but certainly I think

2481
01:33:24,299 --> 01:33:21,769
I cannot deny that this is reported by

2482
01:33:27,279 --> 01:33:24,309
people in that range as increasingly

2483
01:33:28,569 --> 01:33:27,289
integral to their interaction with the

2484
01:33:31,180 --> 01:33:28,579
world and of course one of the things

2485
01:33:32,379 --> 01:33:31,190
that it makes you wonder is like

2486
01:33:35,290 --> 01:33:32,389
actually let me tell a couple of other

2487
01:33:38,259 --> 01:33:35,300
stories so there have been a number of

2488
01:33:41,709 --> 01:33:38,269
major you know random number generator

2489
01:33:43,029 --> 01:33:41,719
type research groups and experiments and

2490
01:33:44,500 --> 01:33:43,039
stuff that have gone on no doubt your

2491
01:33:46,689 --> 01:33:44,510
interest in this area familiar with all

2492
01:33:47,709 --> 01:33:46,699
of those types of things so you know

2493
01:33:49,359 --> 01:33:47,719
there's lots of different devices

2494
01:33:50,739 --> 01:33:49,369
there's lots of different researchers

2495
01:33:52,450 --> 01:33:50,749
and groups have looked into this all

2496
01:33:53,739 --> 01:33:52,460
over the world I was having a

2497
01:33:56,709 --> 01:33:53,749
conversation with one of those groups

2498
01:33:58,569 --> 01:33:56,719
one time and I was asking them about the

2499
01:34:01,330 --> 01:33:58,579
and this was way before I was doing this

2500
01:34:03,609 --> 01:34:01,340
this was like 2006 it was there just a

2501
01:34:05,350 --> 01:34:03,619
random occurrence in my life really

2502
01:34:07,199 --> 01:34:05,360
somebody just wound up having dinner

2503
01:34:09,029 --> 01:34:07,209
with some of them

2504
01:34:10,979 --> 01:34:09,039
I asked them about just sort of the

2505
01:34:14,969 --> 01:34:10,989
internal phenomenological state of

2506
01:34:16,739 --> 01:34:14,979
people who were able to were basically

2507
01:34:18,779 --> 01:34:16,749
what they said is that although they

2508
01:34:21,209 --> 01:34:18,789
didn't talk about it publicly it seemed

2509
01:34:23,069 --> 01:34:21,219
like they had like one or two superstars

2510
01:34:24,089 --> 01:34:23,079
or two or three superstars or something

2511
01:34:26,189 --> 01:34:24,099
I don't remember in their research

2512
01:34:28,580 --> 01:34:26,199
population and that when they there's

2513
01:34:31,199 --> 01:34:28,590
their results were so sick so

2514
01:34:32,459 --> 01:34:31,209
statistically significant that when they

2515
01:34:34,169 --> 01:34:32,469
folded that in with the rest of the

2516
01:34:35,939 --> 01:34:34,179
research population they got a slight

2517
01:34:37,949 --> 01:34:35,949
statistical significance for the overall

2518
01:34:39,569 --> 01:34:37,959
research population right but because of

2519
01:34:40,799 --> 01:34:39,579
their protocol and their IRB and stuff

2520
01:34:42,029 --> 01:34:40,809
they couldn't really just pull out those

2521
01:34:43,949 --> 01:34:42,039
three people and only report those

2522
01:34:45,270 --> 01:34:43,959
results but they became interested

2523
01:34:46,410 --> 01:34:45,280
obviously and who those people were and

2524
01:34:48,149 --> 01:34:46,420
what they were thinking and what their

2525
01:34:50,489 --> 01:34:48,159
experience of it was and all of that and

2526
01:34:52,319 --> 01:34:50,499
they basically described all of them

2527
01:34:54,089 --> 01:34:52,329
basically described at this solution of

2528
01:34:56,939 --> 01:34:54,099
the individualized sense of self and a

2529
01:34:58,560 --> 01:34:56,949
sense of merging with the apparatus with

2530
01:35:00,779 --> 01:34:58,570
the experimental apparatus was their

2531
01:35:03,750 --> 01:35:00,789
term for their stuff experimental

2532
01:35:06,719 --> 01:35:03,760
apparatus I had another conversation

2533
01:35:09,719 --> 01:35:06,729
with another group this was one of the

2534
01:35:11,189 --> 01:35:09,729
famous s RI people right so a lot of

2535
01:35:12,959 --> 01:35:11,199
their stuff is public and a lot of their

2536
01:35:15,449 --> 01:35:12,969
stuff is published and I know one of the

2537
01:35:17,040 --> 01:35:15,459
things that Russ Russ Targ has I'm sure

2538
01:35:19,350 --> 01:35:17,050
talked about publicly aside and this

2539
01:35:21,390 --> 01:35:19,360
can't be a secret is that he basically

2540
01:35:23,850 --> 01:35:21,400
took this clock off his mantle one day

2541
01:35:26,219 --> 01:35:23,860
and put some mirrors on it and then like

2542
01:35:27,569 --> 01:35:26,229
bounce some lasers off those mirrors and

2543
01:35:29,549 --> 01:35:27,579
then like sort of put it behind a glass

2544
01:35:31,140 --> 01:35:29,559
panel on one end of a room and he

2545
01:35:32,969 --> 01:35:31,150
brought people in and he said make the

2546
01:35:34,799 --> 01:35:32,979
pendulum move you know which was one of

2547
01:35:35,699 --> 01:35:34,809
those rotational not like left-right

2548
01:35:37,350 --> 01:35:35,709
pendulum but like one of those

2549
01:35:40,259 --> 01:35:37,360
rotational pendulums on a mantel clock

2550
01:35:41,580 --> 01:35:40,269
ring and he's like make those move and

2551
01:35:43,589 --> 01:35:41,590
he'd set up the laser is to basically

2552
01:35:46,020 --> 01:35:43,599
detect even the slightest movement with

2553
01:35:48,689 --> 01:35:46,030
uses a laser physicist right you know

2554
01:35:50,250 --> 01:35:48,699
bouncing off the mirrors and this was

2555
01:35:51,540 --> 01:35:50,260
you know government-funded research the

2556
01:35:53,640 --> 01:35:51,550
tune of many many millions of dollars

2557
01:35:56,429 --> 01:35:53,650
down here in Palo Alto California and

2558
01:35:57,660 --> 01:35:56,439
one day one of their research subjects

2559
01:35:58,890 --> 01:35:57,670
who thought that this was just the most

2560
01:36:01,049 --> 01:35:58,900
ludicrous thing that he'd ever been

2561
01:36:03,989 --> 01:36:01,059
assigned to as part of his internship at

2562
01:36:05,939 --> 01:36:03,999
SR I one day he's sitting there and lo

2563
01:36:08,489 --> 01:36:05,949
and behold the thing moves and he learns

2564
01:36:10,049 --> 01:36:08,499
how to move it when asked about you know

2565
01:36:12,779 --> 01:36:10,059
what was that like for you he described

2566
01:36:14,370 --> 01:36:12,789
the same thing he described it was the

2567
01:36:16,290 --> 01:36:14,380
sense of a dissolution of my

2568
01:36:19,319 --> 01:36:16,300
individualized sense of self and a sense

2569
01:36:20,439 --> 01:36:19,329
of merging with the apparatus and then

2570
01:36:23,050 --> 01:36:20,449
somehow I could

2571
01:36:25,150 --> 01:36:23,060
to affect it and for him that eventually

2572
01:36:26,860 --> 01:36:25,160
became a persistent fundamental

2573
01:36:29,260 --> 01:36:26,870
well-being he actually used that as a

2574
01:36:30,850 --> 01:36:29,270
doorway to get to fundamental well-being

2575
01:36:32,260 --> 01:36:30,860
it which is why I sort of stored these

2576
01:36:33,610 --> 01:36:32,270
stories in the back of my head over the

2577
01:36:35,020 --> 01:36:33,620
years because I think to myself well

2578
01:36:36,280 --> 01:36:35,030
maybe someday we'll be able to invent

2579
01:36:38,290 --> 01:36:36,290
something like this that is another

2580
01:36:40,570 --> 01:36:38,300
easier way to access fundamental

2581
01:36:42,459 --> 01:36:40,580
well-being and then a third example

2582
01:36:44,770 --> 01:36:42,469
another set of research done very very

2583
01:36:45,760 --> 01:36:44,780
if I tell you what the apparatus is

2584
01:36:46,900 --> 01:36:45,770
you're gonna immediately know who it is

2585
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:46,910
so I'm not going to tell what the

2586
01:36:51,820 --> 01:36:49,489
apparatus is but really really

2587
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:51,830
sophisticated apparatus different than

2588
01:36:57,910 --> 01:36:55,730
the random number generator stuff and I

2589
01:36:59,439 --> 01:36:57,920
just so happened to be there practically

2590
01:37:00,640 --> 01:36:59,449
the day this apparatus showed up and I

2591
01:37:02,140 --> 01:37:00,650
just happened to be hanging out with the

2592
01:37:05,590 --> 01:37:02,150
scientist in his office just sort of

2593
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:05,600
catching up and talking hanging out and

2594
01:37:10,270 --> 01:37:07,610
their first research subject on the

2595
01:37:12,220 --> 01:37:10,280
apparatus was in doing using it you know

2596
01:37:13,570 --> 01:37:12,230
and they were she was she popped her

2597
01:37:15,729 --> 01:37:13,580
head in and she's like okay you know

2598
01:37:18,130 --> 01:37:15,739
I've got to go home and he was like okay

2599
01:37:19,959 --> 01:37:18,140
you know great have a good day and I'm

2600
01:37:24,580 --> 01:37:19,969
like well hold on like let's go look at

2601
01:37:25,750 --> 01:37:24,590
her results right right and so we go

2602
01:37:27,340 --> 01:37:25,760
back in and we look and there's like

2603
01:37:30,220 --> 01:37:27,350
these bar graphs on the screen if I'm

2604
01:37:32,200 --> 01:37:30,230
remembering right and most of them look

2605
01:37:33,459 --> 01:37:32,210
you know not statistically significant

2606
01:37:34,930 --> 01:37:33,469
and I'm like what are the bar graphs and

2607
01:37:37,180 --> 01:37:34,940
he's like oh they're individual trials

2608
01:37:39,130 --> 01:37:37,190
that were run okay great so can you

2609
01:37:40,689 --> 01:37:39,140
remember what each one of these died

2610
01:37:41,770 --> 01:37:40,699
asked her you know it can be the subject

2611
01:37:43,750 --> 01:37:41,780
could you remember what each one of

2612
01:37:45,100 --> 01:37:43,760
these trials were and she's like sure I

2613
01:37:47,439 --> 01:37:45,110
remember what I was doing for each one

2614
01:37:50,290 --> 01:37:47,449
of them and so I had her walk me through

2615
01:37:52,030 --> 01:37:50,300
them walk us through them and then she

2616
01:37:53,979 --> 01:37:52,040
gets the last couple which were very

2617
01:37:55,630 --> 01:37:53,989
significant like like you know imagine

2618
01:37:57,010 --> 01:37:55,640
like little stubby bar graphs and then

2619
01:37:58,330 --> 01:37:57,020
really really tall bar graphs right I

2620
01:37:59,640 --> 01:37:58,340
mean like there were like a night and

2621
01:38:01,870 --> 01:37:59,650
day difference clearly between these

2622
01:38:03,370 --> 01:38:01,880
sessions and the other ones and I was

2623
01:38:05,590 --> 01:38:03,380
like okay what did you do for this one

2624
01:38:07,860 --> 01:38:05,600
and where she's not previously had any

2625
01:38:11,650 --> 01:38:07,870
hesitation in answering that question

2626
01:38:14,260 --> 01:38:11,660
she paused and you could just see the

2627
01:38:20,439 --> 01:38:14,270
wheels turning you know like if I got a

2628
01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:20,449
dollop and I'm like you know listen

2629
01:38:24,729 --> 01:38:22,370
think about where you are right now

2630
01:38:27,040 --> 01:38:24,739
right there's nothing that you could say

2631
01:38:30,189 --> 01:38:27,050
it's a döner i that we're not gonna be

2632
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:30,199
like okay whatever and so finally she's

2633
01:38:36,220 --> 01:38:33,650
like okay well i can do this thing

2634
01:38:39,490 --> 01:38:36,230
where it's sort of like I can make me go

2635
01:38:43,990 --> 01:38:39,500
away she's like I know that sounds a

2636
01:38:47,110 --> 01:38:44,000
little crazy she goes I basically

2637
01:38:49,270 --> 01:38:47,120
describe the same thing dissolution and

2638
01:38:51,100 --> 01:38:49,280
never sets himself right emerging with

2639
01:38:52,510 --> 01:38:51,110
the experimental apparatus and those are

2640
01:38:55,420 --> 01:38:52,520
the two trials that were off the charts

2641
01:38:57,460 --> 01:38:55,430
or whatever else and so those types of

2642
01:39:00,760 --> 01:38:57,470
data points from very disparate labs

2643
01:39:03,160 --> 01:39:00,770
where I know that in many cases they

2644
01:39:06,610 --> 01:39:03,170
don't even know each other's stories to

2645
01:39:08,440 --> 01:39:06,620
exchange information separated by over a

2646
01:39:12,640 --> 01:39:08,450
decade

2647
01:39:14,050 --> 01:39:12,650
you include the SSRI data and probably

2648
01:39:19,270 --> 01:39:14,060
when that happened I mean who knows when

2649
01:39:22,690 --> 01:39:19,280
that happened that to me says there's

2650
01:39:26,440 --> 01:39:22,700
there there is a potential for some sort

2651
01:39:28,150 --> 01:39:26,450
of interface between a reduction in what

2652
01:39:30,340 --> 01:39:28,160
is the traditional and narrative sense

2653
01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:30,350
of self or the ago extensive south or

2654
01:39:34,990 --> 01:39:31,970
the symbolic sense of South or whatever

2655
01:39:37,260 --> 01:39:35,000
we want to call it it's it seems like

2656
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:37,270
maybe I don't know you know it's not

2657
01:39:41,530 --> 01:39:39,650
something I'm working actively on or

2658
01:39:43,180 --> 01:39:41,540
whatever but just looking at these

2659
01:39:44,860 --> 01:39:43,190
different data presentations looking

2660
01:39:46,540 --> 01:39:44,870
it's been reported to us from research

2661
01:39:47,950 --> 01:39:46,550
subjects from their own phenomenological

2662
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:47,960
experience or whatever it seems possible

2663
01:39:53,500 --> 01:39:50,930
at least that that the normal sense of

2664
01:39:55,540 --> 01:39:53,510
self is just using so much of the system

2665
01:39:58,090 --> 01:39:55,550
and has so much noise generated in the

2666
01:40:00,700 --> 01:39:58,100
system that when that the more that

2667
01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:00,710
quiets down and the more you know the

2668
01:40:04,210 --> 01:40:02,810
more the system has the capacity to just

2669
01:40:07,030 --> 01:40:04,220
listen to something going on in the

2670
01:40:09,190 --> 01:40:07,040
background you know we can't be

2671
01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:09,200
physically separated from the underlying

2672
01:40:13,450 --> 01:40:11,210
quantum reality we've all got to be

2673
01:40:16,030 --> 01:40:13,460
connected it's some energetic level in

2674
01:40:18,040 --> 01:40:16,040
some way it's not inconceivable to me

2675
01:40:20,230 --> 01:40:18,050
that there's a potential mechanism of

2676
01:40:22,900 --> 01:40:20,240
communication there or that there's some

2677
01:40:24,040 --> 01:40:22,910
degree of sensing that in some way it

2678
01:40:25,930 --> 01:40:24,050
could be I have nothing to do with

2679
01:40:27,820 --> 01:40:25,940
quantum stuff I mean I don't know right

2680
01:40:29,980 --> 01:40:27,830
but this is the fact that you and I

2681
01:40:31,300 --> 01:40:29,990
think that we're separate or that I

2682
01:40:32,800 --> 01:40:31,310
think that I'm separate from this house

2683
01:40:34,660 --> 01:40:32,810
or something and you know I don't

2684
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:34,670
actually anymore my own personal

2685
01:40:38,380 --> 01:40:35,810
experience of the world doesn't feel

2686
01:40:39,670 --> 01:40:38,390
separate but I remember when I did and

2687
01:40:42,550 --> 01:40:39,680
certainly most people would say that

2688
01:40:45,010 --> 01:40:42,560
they do feel that way that you know that

2689
01:40:47,439 --> 01:40:45,020
just doesn't seem accurate from a

2690
01:40:49,240 --> 01:40:47,449
physics perspective right

2691
01:40:52,540 --> 01:40:49,250
and so I don't know it doesn't seem

2692
01:40:56,470 --> 01:40:52,550
unreasonable to me that our system would

2693
01:41:00,280 --> 01:40:56,480
evolve in such a way that I need to you

2694
01:41:02,709 --> 01:41:00,290
know eat poop take care of my child you

2695
01:41:04,330 --> 01:41:02,719
know I need a certain level of cognition

2696
01:41:06,370 --> 01:41:04,340
in my system in order to do all that but

2697
01:41:07,990 --> 01:41:06,380
perhaps if you can just keep quieting

2698
01:41:10,330 --> 01:41:08,000
that system down more and more and more

2699
01:41:12,580 --> 01:41:10,340
and more access to other things become

2700
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:12,590
possible and then even on the PK front

2701
01:41:16,540 --> 01:41:14,210
right the psychokinesis front which is

2702
01:41:18,400 --> 01:41:16,550
the academic term for moving stuff with

2703
01:41:20,740 --> 01:41:18,410
your mind and making stuff manifest in

2704
01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:20,750
whatever even on that front I think it's

2705
01:41:23,890 --> 01:41:22,250
an interesting question right because I

2706
01:41:26,020 --> 01:41:23,900
can clearly move my high end of my arm

2707
01:41:27,550 --> 01:41:26,030
pretty easily what if that thing is

2708
01:41:31,450 --> 01:41:27,560
equally possible so what we see from

2709
01:41:33,100 --> 01:41:31,460
location 10 on is increased reports of

2710
01:41:35,439 --> 01:41:33,110
what people basically feel are like

2711
01:41:37,300 --> 01:41:35,449
increased skill with what they would

2712
01:41:39,250 --> 01:41:37,310
call you know the site type of

2713
01:41:40,630 --> 01:41:39,260
psychokinesis or mind matter interaction

2714
01:41:42,910 --> 01:41:40,640
and I have to say I've seen some crazy

2715
01:41:44,919 --> 01:41:42,920
stuff over the years but I'm not a

2716
01:41:47,260 --> 01:41:44,929
magician right like it's pretty easy to

2717
01:41:49,660 --> 01:41:47,270
fool me with that stuff and so I always

2718
01:41:52,060 --> 01:41:49,670
have to keep that in mind I can't tell

2719
01:41:53,680 --> 01:41:52,070
how Penn & Teller is doing a trick right

2720
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:53,690
if they're like I did that with my mind

2721
01:41:57,520 --> 01:41:55,730
I'd be like yeah but I think Russell

2722
01:41:59,080 --> 01:41:57,530
Targ and those guys it had a pretty good

2723
01:42:00,340 --> 01:41:59,090
handle on it I mean the protocol for

2724
01:42:03,340 --> 01:42:00,350
some of those experiments is pretty

2725
01:42:05,740 --> 01:42:03,350
frickin simple so I never like that

2726
01:42:08,410 --> 01:42:05,750
those kind of skeptical explanations you

2727
01:42:10,870 --> 01:42:08,420
know which are so more easily debunked

2728
01:42:14,110 --> 01:42:10,880
than the other but leaving that for a

2729
01:42:15,370 --> 01:42:14,120
minute because one more topic that and I

2730
01:42:18,189 --> 01:42:15,380
don't even know if you want to go there

2731
01:42:23,110 --> 01:42:18,199
but I just published an interview couple

2732
01:42:26,140 --> 01:42:23,120
episodes ago with a guy Navy guy 20 year

2733
01:42:27,850 --> 01:42:26,150
veteran who was part of this UFO

2734
01:42:30,189 --> 01:42:27,860
disclosure that was the largest UFO

2735
01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:30,199
disclosure in history it happened in

2736
01:42:35,260 --> 01:42:33,290
December of 2017 and was in The Wall

2737
01:42:36,970 --> 01:42:35,270
Street Journal and it was on Fox News

2738
01:42:39,490 --> 01:42:36,980
and CBS News and it was everywhere

2739
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:39,500
it was the disclosure effort and if you

2740
01:42:43,240 --> 01:42:41,570
blinked you missed it because it didn't

2741
01:42:44,650 --> 01:42:43,250
get any traction so I don't know where

2742
01:42:46,060 --> 01:42:44,660
they're going with that that's a whole

2743
01:42:48,610 --> 01:42:46,070
other story but they came out and said

2744
01:42:50,890 --> 01:42:48,620
yeah okay we haven't told you the truth

2745
01:42:53,320 --> 01:42:50,900
this stuff really happens here's a

2746
01:42:56,020 --> 01:42:53,330
program here's the video of it it

2747
01:42:57,640 --> 01:42:56,030
happened off the coast of San Diego so

2748
01:42:59,350 --> 01:42:57,650
the guy I interviewed Kevin day says

2749
01:43:01,240 --> 01:42:59,360
yeah I was on board

2750
01:43:03,610 --> 01:43:01,250
it was incredible you know these things

2751
01:43:06,130 --> 01:43:03,620
how how we tracked him and I had this

2752
01:43:07,900 --> 01:43:06,140
encounter experience now the reason I

2753
01:43:09,210 --> 01:43:07,910
got even interested in all this is

2754
01:43:11,890 --> 01:43:09,220
because I was interested in the

2755
01:43:15,190 --> 01:43:11,900
near-death experience science if you

2756
01:43:18,820 --> 01:43:15,200
will and then some folks have started to

2757
01:43:20,980 --> 01:43:18,830
do the experiencer science as well as

2758
01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:20,990
they can in terms of looking at what

2759
01:43:25,450 --> 01:43:22,610
that experience looks like across

2760
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:25,460
various people trying to soar through

2761
01:43:30,010 --> 01:43:27,650
that data and is there's a big overlay

2762
01:43:32,220 --> 01:43:30,020
with the near-death experience it turns

2763
01:43:34,630 --> 01:43:32,230
out a lot of times these are more

2764
01:43:36,460 --> 01:43:34,640
spiritually transformative than we

2765
01:43:38,230 --> 01:43:36,470
previously thought although they break

2766
01:43:40,240 --> 01:43:38,240
into different groups I don't want to

2767
01:43:41,770 --> 01:43:40,250
get too far afield now that's definitely

2768
01:43:43,510 --> 01:43:41,780
true we've interface with a lot of those

2769
01:43:47,830 --> 01:43:43,520
researchers here's the point that

2770
01:43:49,930 --> 01:43:47,840
intrigues me if we accept this encounter

2771
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:49,940
experience and the guy I interviewed

2772
01:43:54,490 --> 01:43:52,010
Kevin day says it was very traumatic for

2773
01:43:57,520 --> 01:43:54,500
me particularly because I had all these

2774
01:43:59,860 --> 01:43:57,530
symptoms that manifested like PTSD

2775
01:44:01,720 --> 01:43:59,870
complex PTSD and I'm going to the vet

2776
01:44:03,220 --> 01:44:01,730
and they're gone that's what it is I'm

2777
01:44:05,950 --> 01:44:03,230
going yeah but that doesn't quite fit

2778
01:44:09,370 --> 01:44:05,960
and then he comes across Jacques Vallee

2779
01:44:12,370 --> 01:44:09,380
Davis this research that they compiled

2780
01:44:14,770 --> 01:44:12,380
on encounters and the after-effects of

2781
01:44:17,260 --> 01:44:14,780
encounters and he goes bingo that's it

2782
01:44:19,240 --> 01:44:17,270
everything they're saying there across

2783
01:44:22,240 --> 01:44:19,250
all these people who have had these

2784
01:44:26,100 --> 01:44:22,250
encounters fits my experience here's the

2785
01:44:29,230 --> 01:44:26,110
question it's pointing towards a

2786
01:44:32,520 --> 01:44:29,240
technology it's really pointing towards

2787
01:44:35,170 --> 01:44:32,530
a technology that there is this

2788
01:44:39,280 --> 01:44:35,180
consciousness out there and whether it's

2789
01:44:42,190 --> 01:44:39,290
manifested in whatever these forms are

2790
01:44:45,430 --> 01:44:42,200
whatever these others are they seem to

2791
01:44:48,370 --> 01:44:45,440
demonstrate the ability to manipulate

2792
01:44:51,310 --> 01:44:48,380
this consciousness realm in a way that

2793
01:44:53,770 --> 01:44:51,320
we kind of understand and then kind of

2794
01:44:56,860 --> 01:44:53,780
completely don't understand telepathy is

2795
01:45:00,730 --> 01:44:56,870
an example screen memory is an example

2796
01:45:03,550 --> 01:45:00,740
emoting telepathically causing you to

2797
01:45:07,270 --> 01:45:03,560
emote certain kind of things you know

2798
01:45:09,700 --> 01:45:07,280
whether they're sexual or not feeling

2799
01:45:14,290 --> 01:45:09,710
things and all the stuff what do you

2800
01:45:15,040 --> 01:45:14,300
think about ET have you bumped into that

2801
01:45:18,189 --> 01:45:15,050
at all

2802
01:45:20,350 --> 01:45:18,199
are you willing to be open to that

2803
01:45:21,790 --> 01:45:20,360
and what do you think about in

2804
01:45:23,770 --> 01:45:21,800
particular what I think about what do

2805
01:45:27,910 --> 01:45:23,780
you think about what that might suggest

2806
01:45:31,149 --> 01:45:27,920
for advanced capabilities along these

2807
01:45:34,020 --> 01:45:31,159
scales that you're already on right

2808
01:45:37,990 --> 01:45:34,030
because if you're on this path of

2809
01:45:43,149 --> 01:45:38,000
protocols and technology to move you

2810
01:45:45,669 --> 01:45:43,159
across this scale or location path might

2811
01:45:47,709 --> 01:45:45,679
that be somewhere along that path it's a

2812
01:45:52,149 --> 01:45:47,719
good question I I am definitely not an

2813
01:45:55,209 --> 01:45:52,159
expert on in the ET space I can say that

2814
01:45:56,530 --> 01:45:55,219
I've had a couple of a couple I have had

2815
01:45:59,109 --> 01:45:56,540
a couple of subjects in the early years

2816
01:46:02,410 --> 01:45:59,119
mention it mentioned some sort of

2817
01:46:05,470 --> 01:46:02,420
involvement with ETS and their spiritual

2818
01:46:07,629 --> 01:46:05,480
development more broadly from that there

2819
01:46:09,970 --> 01:46:07,639
are plenty of people who talk about you

2820
01:46:10,930 --> 01:46:09,980
know beings and stuff like that as a

2821
01:46:14,080 --> 01:46:10,940
part there are some people who

2822
01:46:16,359 --> 01:46:14,090
transition to especially further forms

2823
01:46:19,569 --> 01:46:16,369
of fundamental well-being that like

2824
01:46:21,370 --> 01:46:19,579
later locations who have reported only

2825
01:46:24,010 --> 01:46:21,380
having those transitions occur when

2826
01:46:26,680 --> 01:46:24,020
certain when when like a some being will

2827
01:46:29,049 --> 01:46:26,690
materialize and like just like zap them

2828
01:46:30,819 --> 01:46:29,059
into some other location and then the

2829
01:46:32,500 --> 01:46:30,829
being will be materialized right now

2830
01:46:34,959 --> 01:46:32,510
that could be their brain hallucinating

2831
01:46:37,390 --> 01:46:34,969
in the middle of a shift or who knows

2832
01:46:39,339 --> 01:46:37,400
what it could be right so I think it's a

2833
01:46:40,479 --> 01:46:39,349
good question I don't know I've known I

2834
01:46:42,549 --> 01:46:40,489
mean the thing is I don't think you have

2835
01:46:44,560 --> 01:46:42,559
to go to extraterrestrial technology for

2836
01:46:46,120 --> 01:46:44,570
that type of stuff and you know you

2837
01:46:48,819 --> 01:46:46,130
spend any time at all in the brainstem

2838
01:46:50,530 --> 01:46:48,829
space and eventually you run across some

2839
01:46:53,049 --> 01:46:50,540
of the people who have worked in sort of

2840
01:46:55,209 --> 01:46:53,059
the black projects for the US government

2841
01:46:57,939 --> 01:46:55,219
doing you know non-invasive brain

2842
01:46:59,740 --> 01:46:57,949
stimulation stuff and it's pretty clear

2843
01:47:01,450 --> 01:46:59,750
that they were that they were able to

2844
01:47:03,069 --> 01:47:01,460
use microwaves I mean the reason we use

2845
01:47:04,299 --> 01:47:03,079
ultrasound is because well you know

2846
01:47:06,250 --> 01:47:04,309
we're a little concerned that if we use

2847
01:47:09,129 --> 01:47:06,260
microwaves we're gonna get a visit

2848
01:47:11,169 --> 01:47:09,139
you know people telling us to please

2849
01:47:12,609 --> 01:47:11,179
stop that in the in the name of national

2850
01:47:14,049 --> 01:47:12,619
security or something you know I don't

2851
01:47:15,700 --> 01:47:14,059
know but you know I mean I know

2852
01:47:17,589 --> 01:47:15,710
researchers who have been involved in

2853
01:47:18,430 --> 01:47:17,599
some of this stuff that have they've

2854
01:47:20,229 --> 01:47:18,440
clearly been through magnetic

2855
01:47:22,780 --> 01:47:20,239
stimulation they've clearly been through

2856
01:47:24,069 --> 01:47:22,790
different forms of stimulation and

2857
01:47:26,709 --> 01:47:24,079
they've clearly had success with

2858
01:47:28,890 --> 01:47:26,719
generating emotion for instance in

2859
01:47:31,500 --> 01:47:28,900
people or eliciting orgasm even

2860
01:47:32,939 --> 01:47:31,510
or whatever else and so I don't think

2861
01:47:35,340 --> 01:47:32,949
you necessarily have to go to ET

2862
01:47:37,590 --> 01:47:35,350
technology yeah but it becomes a chicken

2863
01:47:39,419 --> 01:47:37,600
and the egg kind of question if you get

2864
01:47:40,709 --> 01:47:39,429
very far into it and I realized that so

2865
01:47:45,419 --> 01:47:40,719
I don't want to pull you too far afield

2866
01:47:47,070 --> 01:47:45,429
but the technology sharing I actually

2867
01:47:49,890 --> 01:47:47,080
know enough about the linear development

2868
01:47:52,530 --> 01:47:49,900
of that technology and who did it at

2869
01:47:55,680 --> 01:47:52,540
what point over decades to know to be

2870
01:47:59,130 --> 01:47:55,690
able to see that as a as a as a highly

2871
01:48:00,660 --> 01:47:59,140
experimented linear human developmental

2872
01:48:02,459 --> 01:48:00,670
path which is why I use it as an example

2873
01:48:04,260 --> 01:48:02,469
I mean you know I think there were some

2874
01:48:06,030 --> 01:48:04,270
significant missteps and some horror

2875
01:48:09,450 --> 01:48:06,040
stories and anytime you're stimulating

2876
01:48:11,280 --> 01:48:09,460
the brain with different things and you

2877
01:48:13,380 --> 01:48:11,290
know so I've had some interaction with

2878
01:48:16,470 --> 01:48:13,390
with some folks like that who really

2879
01:48:19,380 --> 01:48:16,480
believe you know who mostly just you

2880
01:48:21,300 --> 01:48:19,390
know sort of came out to us and said you

2881
01:48:23,280 --> 01:48:21,310
know listen you should take this brain

2882
01:48:26,760 --> 01:48:23,290
stuff seriously you're on the right

2883
01:48:28,860 --> 01:48:26,770
track I can't say anything more specific

2884
01:48:32,189 --> 01:48:28,870
than what I'm gonna tell you here today

2885
01:48:35,010 --> 01:48:32,199
you know for legal reasons but you know

2886
01:48:37,500 --> 01:48:35,020
yes you know and you know and and and

2887
01:48:40,500 --> 01:48:37,510
from those people I've roughly gotten a

2888
01:48:42,180 --> 01:48:40,510
chronology of what technologies were

2889
01:48:43,919 --> 01:48:42,190
experimented with when where the ideas

2890
01:48:46,290 --> 01:48:43,929
came from you know that a lot of that

2891
01:48:48,060 --> 01:48:46,300
stuff is not classified in any way and

2892
01:48:49,290 --> 01:48:48,070
so that was sort of the stuff that they

2893
01:48:51,000 --> 01:48:49,300
can help you to paint to pick a

2894
01:48:53,880 --> 01:48:51,010
directional picture around and stuff

2895
01:48:55,830 --> 01:48:53,890
like that and so so I I'd certainly I

2896
01:48:57,600 --> 01:48:55,840
mean you know it's a massive universe

2897
01:49:00,479 --> 01:48:57,610
out there right we're probably not alone

2898
01:49:02,250 --> 01:49:00,489
who knows but I haven't seen anything in

2899
01:49:03,630 --> 01:49:02,260
this space

2900
01:49:05,340 --> 01:49:03,640
I haven't had to deal with that in any

2901
01:49:08,040 --> 01:49:05,350
way in this space from a data standpoint

2902
01:49:10,530 --> 01:49:08,050
except for a couple of subjects early on

2903
01:49:12,209 --> 01:49:10,540
in the research I do think that I do

2904
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:12,219
think of these promises hold tremendous

2905
01:49:16,380 --> 01:49:15,010
and if I mean yeah if you're able to if

2906
01:49:18,570 --> 01:49:16,390
there's some being out there who is able

2907
01:49:20,669 --> 01:49:18,580
to go across galaxies in an instant

2908
01:49:22,350 --> 01:49:20,679
probably they've developed brain

2909
01:49:25,459 --> 01:49:22,360
computer interfaces whatever that might

2910
01:49:28,310 --> 01:49:25,469
be to their species to a level that is

2911
01:49:31,590 --> 01:49:28,320
astonishing from our perspective right

2912
01:49:33,689 --> 01:49:31,600
and that would be hugely beneficial to

2913
01:49:35,189 --> 01:49:33,699
this project I can't what I want them to

2914
01:49:40,209 --> 01:49:35,199
show up in my living room tomorrow I

2915
01:49:50,709 --> 01:49:42,859
I'm happy with the slope Lottie with

2916
01:49:56,660 --> 01:49:53,629
might be a way to sacrifice the progress

2917
01:50:00,169 --> 01:49:56,670
for you know whatever I don't have to

2918
01:50:02,240 --> 01:50:00,179
have done to me stuff to say this is

2919
01:50:04,609 --> 01:50:02,250
joking around but no I I get you you

2920
01:50:07,040 --> 01:50:04,619
know our folks our guests again has been

2921
01:50:09,620 --> 01:50:07,050
dr. Jeffrey Martin you can check out his

2922
01:50:11,899 --> 01:50:09,630
website dr. Jeffrey Martin calm but

2923
01:50:14,390 --> 01:50:11,909
there's a new book the finders I

2924
01:50:16,700 --> 01:50:14,400
introduced it at the beginning it's a

2925
01:50:20,240 --> 01:50:16,710
very important book if you're at all

2926
01:50:22,819 --> 01:50:20,250
interested in well-being your well-being

2927
01:50:25,370 --> 01:50:22,829
the planets well-being everyone's

2928
01:50:27,470 --> 01:50:25,380
well-being check it out it's been

2929
01:50:29,990 --> 01:50:27,480
fantastic having you on Jeffrey and

2930
01:50:32,839 --> 01:50:30,000
reconnecting anything we left out or

2931
01:50:35,540 --> 01:50:32,849
anyplace else that people need to go to

2932
01:50:37,759 --> 01:50:35,550
connect with this you know I think there

2933
01:50:39,259 --> 01:50:37,769
is one place I mean of course there's

2934
01:50:41,450 --> 01:50:39,269
the normal web sites and stuff which I'm

2935
01:50:43,220 --> 01:50:41,460
sure you stick up on your page but there

2936
01:50:46,279 --> 01:50:43,230
is one thing at least it's alive at the

2937
01:50:48,259 --> 01:50:46,289
time of this interview and it's at

2938
01:50:51,049 --> 01:50:48,269
something called explorers course calm

2939
01:50:52,879 --> 01:50:51,059
which is our follow-on project what

2940
01:50:54,919 --> 01:50:52,889
we've done is we've put up a series of

2941
01:50:57,220 --> 01:50:54,929
videos that we think are important for

2942
01:50:59,569 --> 01:50:57,230
anyone to know about their psychology

2943
01:51:02,450 --> 01:50:59,579
for those who have transitioned to

2944
01:51:04,189 --> 01:51:02,460
fundamental well-being already you know

2945
01:51:05,720 --> 01:51:04,199
oftentimes when someone has transitioned

2946
01:51:07,729 --> 01:51:05,730
to fundamental well-being it's it's

2947
01:51:09,830 --> 01:51:07,739
often in isolation they're generally not

2948
01:51:11,270 --> 01:51:09,840
in a community as a result of that they

2949
01:51:12,950 --> 01:51:11,280
think that they're like the only one who

2950
01:51:15,950 --> 01:51:12,960
has experienced certain things or they

2951
01:51:18,529 --> 01:51:15,960
wonder about what's going to unfold next

2952
01:51:21,229 --> 01:51:18,539
or and the reality is that there's very

2953
01:51:24,020 --> 01:51:21,239
reliable cycles it's very useful to know

2954
01:51:25,279 --> 01:51:24,030
about them and you know there's the sort

2955
01:51:26,569 --> 01:51:25,289
of trade-offs that they're making in

2956
01:51:28,100 --> 01:51:26,579
their own life the difficulties that

2957
01:51:30,259 --> 01:51:28,110
they're experiencing with integrating

2958
01:51:32,750 --> 01:51:30,269
and pn SE and fundamental well-being in

2959
01:51:34,339 --> 01:51:32,760
their own life these are things that

2960
01:51:37,339 --> 01:51:34,349
have been experienced by millions of

2961
01:51:39,290 --> 01:51:37,349
people and we've got data collected on

2962
01:51:41,629 --> 01:51:39,300
them from thousands of people and so

2963
01:51:44,390 --> 01:51:41,639
we've really tried to sort of put the

2964
01:51:45,859 --> 01:51:44,400
most important thing out there and it's

2965
01:51:47,569 --> 01:51:45,869
just you know it's just free basically

2966
01:51:49,940 --> 01:51:47,579
you just can go to explore scarce calm

2967
01:51:51,680 --> 01:51:49,950
and you can get that free

2968
01:51:53,210 --> 01:51:51,690
we basically it's the first module of

2969
01:51:54,590 --> 01:51:53,220
the actual explorers course which is

2970
01:51:56,810 --> 01:51:54,600
another experiment that isn't free but

2971
01:51:59,450 --> 01:51:56,820
that first module contains so much of

2972
01:52:01,340 --> 01:51:59,460
the important core situational you know

2973
01:52:03,620 --> 01:52:01,350
help you understand your life sort of

2974
01:52:06,230 --> 01:52:03,630
stuff that everybody with everybody that

2975
01:52:07,910 --> 01:52:06,240
took that course was like you know you

2976
01:52:09,200 --> 01:52:07,920
should just make this available this has

2977
01:52:10,490 --> 01:52:09,210
to be available to people if I would

2978
01:52:12,230 --> 01:52:10,500
have had this years ago my life would

2979
01:52:14,330 --> 01:52:12,240
have been so totally different and so I

2980
01:52:15,320 --> 01:52:14,340
thought why not so we just basically put

2981
01:52:17,450 --> 01:52:15,330
it up there you can't even actually

2982
01:52:18,830 --> 01:52:17,460
order at this moment maybe we should

2983
01:52:20,150 --> 01:52:18,840
change that but you can't even order the

2984
01:52:21,530 --> 01:52:20,160
real explorers course or get to the real

2985
01:52:23,450 --> 01:52:21,540
explorers courts or anything or that

2986
01:52:25,430 --> 01:52:23,460
website which is kind of funny it's

2987
01:52:28,970 --> 01:52:25,440
literally just that content we just want

2988
01:52:30,650 --> 01:52:28,980
really as many finders as many people

2989
01:52:33,260 --> 01:52:30,660
who experience fundamental well-being as

2990
01:52:35,480 --> 01:52:33,270
possible to really find that so they can

2991
01:52:37,550 --> 01:52:35,490
understand you know how what's going on

2992
01:52:40,220 --> 01:52:37,560
with them and sort of how best to think

2993
01:52:42,500 --> 01:52:40,230
about integrating it in with modern life

2994
01:52:44,480 --> 01:52:42,510
because what's strange about this is

2995
01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:44,490
that there's just not much on it people

2996
01:52:48,470 --> 01:52:46,650
often find audio shanties book the end

2997
01:52:50,540 --> 01:52:48,480
of your world and like cling to it like

2998
01:52:52,070 --> 01:52:50,550
a Bible you know like it's the one thing

2999
01:52:54,380 --> 01:52:52,080
that they found that speaks to them in

3000
01:52:56,510 --> 01:52:54,390
some way and of course they can read all

3001
01:52:58,130 --> 01:52:56,520
of the seeker spiritual stuff right and

3002
01:53:00,770 --> 01:52:58,140
they're reading it from a completely new

3003
01:53:02,480 --> 01:53:00,780
lens and understanding it and a much

3004
01:53:03,530 --> 01:53:02,490
more deeper and meaningful level but

3005
01:53:06,170 --> 01:53:03,540
that's not telling them how to integrate

3006
01:53:07,340 --> 01:53:06,180
stuff with their life it's just you know

3007
01:53:09,020 --> 01:53:07,350
giving them a little bit of validation

3008
01:53:10,370 --> 01:53:09,030
that they've probably reached a certain

3009
01:53:12,260 --> 01:53:10,380
place that these other people that wrote

3010
01:53:13,850 --> 01:53:12,270
the book or something or had reached and

3011
01:53:15,710 --> 01:53:13,860
understood I do think that's actually

3012
01:53:18,220 --> 01:53:15,720
one thing that we have out there that we

3013
01:53:20,570 --> 01:53:18,230
didn't really talk about but that is

3014
01:53:21,950 --> 01:53:20,580
incredibly incredibly important that's

3015
01:53:23,000 --> 01:53:21,960
why I think maybe that's one of the most

3016
01:53:24,890 --> 01:53:23,010
important things that we've ever made

3017
01:53:26,600 --> 01:53:24,900
available great great stuff you know

3018
01:53:29,090 --> 01:53:26,610
I've stumbled across that just in the

3019
01:53:31,190 --> 01:53:29,100
near-death experience science everyone

3020
01:53:32,300 --> 01:53:31,200
10 years ago was all excited and this

3021
01:53:34,430 --> 01:53:32,310
and that and there were a couple of

3022
01:53:35,090 --> 01:53:34,440
brave people who stood up and said same

3023
01:53:37,400 --> 01:53:35,100
kind of thing

3024
01:53:39,590 --> 01:53:37,410
hey guys there's a huge integration

3025
01:53:42,530 --> 01:53:39,600
problem here there's a huge divorce rate

3026
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:42,540
increase there's a huge depression kind

3027
01:53:47,660 --> 01:53:46,170
of thing going on so yeah I think you're

3028
01:53:50,420 --> 01:53:47,670
you're onto something and it's awesome

3029
01:53:52,580 --> 01:53:50,430
that you're addressing it well thanks so

3030
01:53:54,170 --> 01:53:52,590
much you know I love hanging out and

3031
01:53:56,330 --> 01:53:54,180
talking with you we've I don't know I've

3032
01:54:01,060 --> 01:53:56,340
had a conversation on camera I suppose

3033
01:54:05,750 --> 01:54:03,890
this is always a lot of fun yeah it's

3034
01:54:07,310 --> 01:54:05,760
super fun for me and I really do

3035
01:54:09,560 --> 01:54:07,320
appreciate it hopefully I make it up

3036
01:54:11,540 --> 01:54:09,570
there sometime and I'd love to see the

3037
01:54:13,970 --> 01:54:11,550
place that you go you should totally

3038
01:54:16,040 --> 01:54:13,980
come you should totally come and try out

3039
01:54:16,880 --> 01:54:16,050
our latest technology deal deal deal

3040
01:54:20,120 --> 01:54:16,890
deal

3041
01:54:23,530 --> 01:54:20,130
Jeffrey take care I'll give you a heads

3042
01:54:25,940 --> 01:54:23,540
up when this comes out all right thanks

3043
01:54:27,800 --> 01:54:25,950
thanks again to dr. Jeffrey Martin for

3044
01:54:29,420 --> 01:54:27,810
joining me today on skeptic oh one

3045
01:54:32,390 --> 01:54:29,430
question I'd have to tee up from this

3046
01:54:35,080 --> 01:54:32,400
interview is has he done it has he

3047
01:54:38,440 --> 01:54:35,090
cracked the code is this the answer

3048
01:54:42,020 --> 01:54:38,450
could there be such an answer to this

3049
01:54:46,040 --> 01:54:42,030
enlightenment transcendent awakening

3050
01:54:48,800 --> 01:54:46,050
kind of thing has he at least advanced

3051
01:54:51,710 --> 01:54:48,810
the ball in a direction that we all want

3052
01:54:53,930 --> 01:54:51,720
to take things what do you think let me

3053
01:54:55,460 --> 01:54:53,940
know this was a long interview so I'm

3054
01:54:57,650 --> 01:54:55,470
going to wrap it up but if you like this

3055
01:54:59,990 --> 01:54:57,660
one and you're new to this show please

3056
01:55:01,970 --> 01:55:00,000
check out all the other shows we have on

3057
01:55:04,010 --> 01:55:01,980
Skeptical all available there for

3058
01:55:05,840 --> 01:55:04,020
download for free lots of transcripts

3059
01:55:07,580 --> 01:55:05,850
you can read through lots of stuff you

3060
01:55:10,550 --> 01:55:07,590
can keep yourself busy for a long time

3061
01:55:12,710 --> 01:55:10,560
with skeptical comm I've got some great

3062
01:55:15,380 --> 01:55:12,720
interviews coming up stick around for

3063
01:55:18,280 --> 01:55:15,390
all of that until next time take care

3064
01:55:33,280 --> 01:55:18,290
and bye for now

3065
01:55:37,939 --> 01:55:36,080
so thanks for watching this video if it

3066
01:55:40,520 --> 01:55:37,949
wasn't really a video but just an audio

3067
01:55:42,080 --> 01:55:40,530
stored as a video well I apologize but

3068
01:55:44,030 --> 01:55:42,090
there's more videos out there as well

3069
01:55:45,890 --> 01:55:44,040
but please check out the skeptic Oh

3070
01:55:47,240 --> 01:55:45,900
website you can see it here we cover a

3071
01:55:50,060 --> 01:55:47,250
lot of different stuff you might be

3072
01:55:53,390 --> 01:55:50,070
interested in relating to controversial

3073
01:55:56,090 --> 01:55:53,400
science and spirituality a lot of shows

3074
01:55:58,939 --> 01:55:56,100
up there over 350 of them are so all

3075
01:56:01,250 --> 01:55:58,949
free all available for downloads so do